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Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
Ilana Tamar
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 Tue, Oct 21 2014, 8:50 am
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I am among the camp that says Aliyahs are for boys. That said, I have memories of being pushed under the talis as old as 8-9 years old and feeling silly, as I was definitely the oldest girl there and felt totally weirded out, but I was making my dad happy.
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mommy3b2c
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Tue, Oct 21 2014, 8:56 am
| DrMom wrote: | | Really rude to call other people's minhagm ...." |
It's not their minhag.
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shabbatiscoming
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Tue, Oct 21 2014, 8:58 am
| mommy2b2c wrote: | | It's not their minhag. | what do you mean by this. Yes it is. Some shuls do have girls up for kol hanearim and some do not. So those that do, it is their minhag.
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mommy3b2c
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Tue, Oct 21 2014, 8:59 am
| DrMom wrote: | Why is a baby boy getting an aliyah not equally ...."?
Besides, the children don't "get an aliyah"; an adult is the one who actually gets the aliyah. |
Because there is an inyan for all MALES on sim has Torah to get an Aliyah. Since the baby boys can't make a bracha someone else does it for them. That is not silly. Frantically, running to get your daughters for a boys minhag, (as I've seen people in my shul do) is in my opinion silly.
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mommy3b2c
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Tue, Oct 21 2014, 9:01 am
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | | what do you mean by this. Yes it is. Some shuls do have girls up for kol hanearim and some do not. So those that do, it is their minhag. |
I'm talking about the people in my shul. You can take my word for it, it is NOT their minhag. They are just being silly. I cannot speak for the people in your shul.
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champion
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Tue, Oct 21 2014, 9:04 am
Del
Last edited by champion on Wed, Dec 22 2021, 3:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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shabbatiscoming
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Tue, Oct 21 2014, 9:05 am
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In the shuls where girls are included in KOL hanearim, it is not so that they shouldnt feel discriminated against. It is just to have ALL the children. Thats all.
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shabbatiscoming
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Tue, Oct 21 2014, 9:07 am
| Mama Bear wrote: | | I never heard of girls going up for kol hanearim. Men get aliyahs, not women. Since every male has to try to get an aliyah on simchas torah, the boys who cant say the brachos yet go under the tallis toether for kol hanearim. Why on earth should girls be oleh l'torah - it's a boys' thing. I dont see the issue here. | And before I saw this post elsewhere about only boys going up to the bima for KOL hanearim, I never thought about the girls going up either.
No issue here either. Its the way its been done forever around here.
The boys are not getting an aliyah either. They are up there at the bima during the aliyah but they are not getting the aliyah though.
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rosenbal
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Tue, Oct 21 2014, 9:15 am
In the shuls I've gone to (RW OOT) people often send little girls and my own daughter has gone too when she was under chinuch age (6 or so) and still going on men's side on Simchas Torah.
I also always thought it's a little silly (not insulting you or anyone else, just describing how ive always felt about this) since the point is for everyone to get an Aliya and in the shuls I daven at women don't and never will get an aliya. Most likely the rabbis just figure the girls can stay, why fight the congregants for such a silly non halachik issue.
By the way, in many shuls older boys under bar mitzvah get their own Aliya on Simchas torah. I saw my 11 year old this year in a tallis and making his own brachos and that was really amazing. Almost visualizing his bar mitzvah! I never realized under bar mitzvah can get their own real aliya....maybe many big shuls dont do it because of time constraints? Anyone else see this?
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champion
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Tue, Oct 21 2014, 9:20 am
Del
Last edited by champion on Wed, Dec 22 2021, 3:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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Yael
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Tue, Oct 21 2014, 9:53 am
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I edited some posts. Lets try to keep this respectful.
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happybeingamom
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Tue, Oct 21 2014, 10:03 am
| rosenbal wrote: | In the shuls I've gone to (RW OOT) people often send little girls and my own daughter has gone too when she was under chinuch age (6 or so) and still going on men's side on Simchas Torah.
I also always thought it's a little silly (not insulting you or anyone else, just describing how ive always felt about this) since the point is for everyone to get an Aliya and in the shuls I daven at women don't and never will get an aliya. Most likely the rabbis just figure the girls can stay, why fight the congregants for such a silly non halachik issue.
By the way, in many shuls older boys under bar mitzvah get their own Aliya on Simchas torah. I saw my 11 year old this year in a tallis and making his own brachos and that was really amazing. Almost visualizing his bar mitzvah! I never realized under bar mitzvah can get their own real aliya....maybe many big shuls dont do it because of time constraints? Anyone else see this? |
Where I daven the boys who are capable of making the Brachos (about 8 and over but I know some Shuls the beginning age is 11) get their own Aliya. Every male is supposed to get an Aliya on Simchas Torah. Kol HaNaarim is done for the young ones who are not capable. I do not send my young daughters for Kol HaNaarim as it has nothing to do with them. They are not getting Aliyas.
However I don't think it is a big deal to put a young girl under talis during Kol HaNaarim and I don't think if a father wants to bring his daughter he should be stopped. Why make him feel bad?
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sky
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Tue, Oct 21 2014, 10:05 am
| etky wrote: | Do boys under bar-mitzva age get aliyot in your shul?
A man is called up and he is the one who says the brachot of the aliya. The kids recite it with him but technically he is the one getting the aliya. Why shouldn't girls under the age of bat-mitzva stand on the bema under the tallit with the boys? |
Yes my two boys, both under bar mitzva got aliyas because they were able to say the bracha unassisted.
Kol hanearim is for the boys who are unable to say the bracha unassisted. (they allow girls, but it doesn't really make sense).
I don't think it is discriminating to exclude girls from kol hanearim any more then it is discriminating to exclude women from getting an aliya on simchos torah.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Tue, Oct 21 2014, 10:33 am
This has NOTHING to do with fairness. This has to do with the POINT of kol hanearim. This is so that anyone who is able to get an aliyah will, including boys who are not yet bar mitzvah (some of them get real aliyos vs the communal kol hanearim especially as they approach bar mitzvah age). There is no chinuch in girls getting an aliyah; they never will do so as an adult.
Do we also protest batei kohanim not joining their fathers to duchen?
That being said, if a girl is young enough to be on the men's side (e.g. for the hakafos), I would certainly not kick her out. One of my young daughters ran in for kol hanearim (I have no idea if she actually was on the bima, but if she was, I don't care) -- and I just didn't make a big deal about it. She's 4.
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DrMom
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Tue, Oct 21 2014, 10:48 am
A man does the actual aliyah anyway, so I fail to understand why it should matter if there are boys and girls up there (unless your community has an issue with mixing sxes at that age).
I never knew that there were shuls where girls didn't participate in this fun practice.
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DrMom
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Tue, Oct 21 2014, 10:50 am
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I'm sure it is possible to express disagreement without using the words "idiotic"or "silly"to refer to the practice in many Orthodox synagogues. Your persistent use of these terms only reflects badly on you.
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mommy3b2c
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Tue, Oct 21 2014, 11:07 am
| champion wrote: | bickering over nothing
obviously you are both giving different meaning to the word minhag
shabbos- for you minhag means- our practice, the way we do things, the way our shul does it
mommy- you use the word minhag to mean our tradition. |
Actually not, it is neither custom or tradition for these people. They don't have baby boys so they just want to be in on the action.
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mille
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Tue, Oct 21 2014, 11:08 am
I have never seen a shul where girls don't go up to the bima for kol hanearim.
Where is fridasima when we need her? Social construct, social construct!
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mommy3b2c
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Tue, Oct 21 2014, 11:09 am
| DrMom wrote: | | I'm sure it is possible to express disagreement without using the words "idiotic"or "silly"to refer to the practice in many Orthodox synagogues. Your persistent use of these terms only reflects badly on you. |
As I'm trying to explain, it is not the practice or custom or tradition in my synagogue, therefore, in my opinion, the fact that they do it is silly.
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mommy3b2c
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Tue, Oct 21 2014, 11:10 am
| DrMom wrote: | A man does the actual aliyah anyway, so I fail to understand why it should matter if there are boys and girls up there (unless your community has an issue with mixing sxes at that age).
I never knew that there were shuls where girls didn't participate in this fun practice. |
It doesn't matter. Who said it does?
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