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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions
RCA rules all Rabbi Freundel conversions still valid
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 20 2014, 10:55 pm
marina wrote:
so if he followed halacha 100% in the geirus but was a total apikorus, that would be ok?

Just trying to understand the parameters


Probably, but I honestly don't know enough about it- it's a very specialized area. To my knowledge, the role of the bet din is just to make sure everything is done khalacha.
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princessleah




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 11:45 am
I don't understand this whole idea of converting "under" one Rabbi. One is converted by a Beit Din, which is made up of 3 people! That should give you enough leeway. I would think if you accept upon yourself ol mitzvot, learn halacha and take your dip, you are Jewish. This is even more than Ruth did!

Anyway, the Rabbanut just announced they reversed their previous decision:

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-.....21990

guess it wasn't actually halacha. I don't understand why they would only review cases anyway since the cameras were installed. The cameras don't invalidate someone's immersion and it doesn't mean this 'Rabbi' was not a horrible deviant before he installed them!
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grace413




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 11:49 am
princessleah wrote:

Anyway, the Rabbanut just announced they reversed their previous decision:

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-.....21990



Glad to hear this.
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sourstix




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 12:17 pm
raisin-please help me. where did you see that david hamelech did this???????? I asked dh and said he never heard this. tell me where to look this up please I must know this. thanks
everyone else please help me with this. something doesnt sound right
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amother


 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 12:41 pm
sourstix wrote:
raisin-please help me. where did you see that david hamelech did this???????? I asked dh and said he never heard this. tell me where to look this up please I must know this. thanks
everyone else please help me with this. something doesnt sound right


David HaMelech was peeping at Batsheva while she bathed on the roof. That is the plain meaning of the text. Some of commentaries (not sure who, maybe it's a midrash) say she was actually going to the mikvah.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 12:43 pm
Raisin wrote:
Spying on women in a bath house sounds pretty familiar - didn't David Hamelech do this with Bas-sheva?

sourstix wrote:
raisin-please help me. where did you see that david hamelech did this???????? I asked dh and said he never heard this. tell me where to look this up please I must know this. thanks
everyone else please help me with this. something doesnt sound right

It doesn't say where she was bathing, but it was somewhere that the king could see from his roof. Shmuel Bet 11:2
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chickpea_salad




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 1:09 pm
little_mage wrote:
This came up in my facebook, and I thought it was relevant to this discussion. It's by a woman who was converted by Rabbi Freundel. http://blogs.timesofisrael.com.....ghts/


That was a good blog post. The idea of a conversion being invalidated because of someone else's actions seems so wrong.
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Bruria




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 5:42 pm
animeme wrote:
Bruria ,any idea how that idea would apply to those with non halachik conversions by non halachik be is dins? They too aren't informed of what actually needs to be done to be Jewish and toe whatever line they're given, assuming they are Jewish. Yet I know of no halachik body that would consider them so. (Not saying the idea doesn't apply to the current case, but how far can you take it?)
Rambam gets that from this passage in the Babylonian Talmud 46b:

Rabbah stated: It happened at the court of R. Hiyya b. Rabbi — (and R. Joseph taught: R. Oshaia b.40 Rabbi;41 and R. Safra taught: R. Oshaia b. Hiyya)41 — that there came before him a proselyte who had been circumcised but had not performed the ablution.42 The Rabbi told him, 'Wait here until tomorrow43 when we shall arrange for your ablution'. From this incident three rulings may be deduced. It may be inferred that the initiation of a proselyte requires the presence of three men;44 and it may be inferred that a man is not a proper proselyte unless he had been circumcised and had also performed the prescribed ablution; and it may also be inferred45 that the ablution of a proselyte may not take place during the night.
Let it be said that from this incident it may also be inferred that qualified scholars are required!46 — Their presence might have been a mere coincidence.47

Because of this: mere coincidence"that Rambam says it can be three ordinary men.
Also , check what it says on Yebamoth 47(Babylonian talmud):

Our Rabbis taught: If at the present time a man desires42 to become a proselyte, he is to be addressed as follows: 'What reason have you for desiring43 to become a proselyte; do you not know that Israel at the present time are persecuted and oppressed, despised, harassed and overcome by afflictions'? If he replies, 'I know and yet am unworthy',44 he is accepted forthwith, and is given instruction in some of the minor and some of the major commandments. He is informed of the sin [of the neglect of the commandments of] Gleanings,45 the Forgotten Sheaf,46 the Corner47 and the Poor Man's Tithe.48 He is also told of the punishment for the transgression of the commandments. Furthermore, he is addressed thus: 'Be it known to you that before you came to this condition, if you had eaten suet49 you would not have been punishable with kareth, if you had profaned the Sabbath you would not have been punishable with stoning; but now were you to eat suet49 you would be punished with kareth; were you to profane the Sabbath you would be punished with stoning'. And as he is informed of the punishment for the transgression of the commandments, so is he informed of the reward granted for their fulfilment. He is told, 'Be it known to you that the world to come was made only for the righteous, and that Israel at the present time are unable to bear ither too much prosperity. or too much suffering'. He is not, however, to be persuaded or dissuaded too much.1 If he accepted,2 he is circumcised forthwith. Should any shreds3 which render the circumcision invalid remain, he is to be circumcised a second time. As soon as he is healed arrangements are made for his immediate ablution, when two learned men must stand by his side and acquaint him with some of the minor commandments and with some of the major ones.4 When he comes up after his ablution he is deemed to be an Israelite in all respects.n the case of a woman proselyte, women make her sit in the water up to her neck, while two learned men stand outside and give her instruction in some of the minor commandments and some of the major ones.

I think it's interesting that he is circumcised immediately after accepting and dip as soon as he is healed. So, according to this, two talmidei chachamim are necessary. But there is also support for Rambam's view, so... Very Happy
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