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Only boys on the bima for kol hanearim?
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Shuly




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 1:10 pm
I sent my girls (oldest is 4) under the tallis for kol hanearim in a RW Israeli shul. I sent them because I remember going until I was around 6 or 7 - and my father telling me that it's the only time in my life I can get an aliyah! A few people told me it was cute and no one else said a word.
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BrachaBatya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 9:17 pm
I feel that girls should be included equally for this. I'm sick of some of the unfair differences in the way girls are or not able to participate.
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ElTam




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 9:33 pm
In our shul, if you are young enough to be in the men's section for hakafos, you go up for kol ha'na'arim, boy or girl. It is a black hat shul. It's not "idiotic," it's not trying to be "part of the action," it is how our shul does things. People who prefer something else daven elsewhere. My big girls stayed with me. My little girl and little boy went up. End of story. No need to make it into a big deal that it isn't. My little girl understands when she's older, she won't go in for hakafos. She isn't going to expect an Aliyah. There's no slippery slope here from going up for kol ha'na'arim when you are a six-year-old girl to expecting to lein Torah.
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heidi




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 9:33 pm
In all the shuls I've been in for ST, all the children, boys and girls go up for Kol Hanearim. Usually girls till about age7. This year I noticed the fathers all saying the bracha together-- so it seems to me that it's really all the men getting the aliyah and the kids getting the chinuch and the bracha of hamalach hagoel that's sung afterwards. I cannot imagine excluding the JEWISH girls from such a beautiful ceremony.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 10:01 pm
mommy2b2c wrote:
In my shul, some people bring baby girls up to the bimah and I think it's .... The concept is that all boys get Aliyahs not girls. Why do girls belong there?


Could it possibly be because ALL the neshamos of the Jewish people were present at Har Sinai, ALL the people heard the voice of G-d, ALL the people responded Naaseh veNishma, and G-d told Moshe to address BOTH Bnei Yisrael AND Beit Yaakov, with Rashi explaining that Bnei Yisrael is the men and Beit Yaakov is the women, just in case you didn't know that from having attended a beit yakkov school? You know, I think we might have something there! Yep, I think that must be it.

The boys. are.not.getting.a. real.aliyah any more than the girls are, got that? It's a mock aliyah to make them feel a part of the festivities. Bringing a little boy up to the bimah for an "aliyah"--and most certainluy bringing an infant--is every inch as ridiculous as you feel bringing a little girl is, or every inch as right and appropriate as other people feel it is.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 21 2014, 10:12 pm
mandr wrote:
Life isn't fair and neither is Judaism a matter of fairness. We don't have women Rabbis, and I don't find that unfair. Men don't have certain mitzvos that we women have, and they don't find that unfair.

I don't get why a girl would feel insulted about not being allowed to go in for kol hanarim if the shul didn't have that custom. If I was that girl, I'd feel embarrassed to want to do that. In my Shul, it's just for the boys and I don't recall seeing any girl stamp her foot and yell "It's not fair!"
But see thats not the issue.
No girl is saying "hey, its unfair. I want to be up there too". Its just done that they are part of it. I never saw a girl being told "no, you cant go up there for that bracha." On the contrary. In the shuls I have gone to the rabbanim herd ALL of the little children up there.

As I keep saying, this has nothing to do with unfairness. In my communities, it was just what was done.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 12:40 am
heidi wrote:
In all the shuls I've been in for ST, all the children, boys and girls go up for Kol Hanearim. Usually girls till about age7. This year I noticed the fathers all saying the bracha together-- so it seems to me that it's really all the men getting the aliyah and the kids getting the chinuch and the bracha of hamalach hagoel that's sung afterwards. I cannot imagine excluding the JEWISH girls from such a beautiful ceremony.


I think you've touched on the heart of the matter. In shuls where girls take part in Kol Hanearim the point of the minhag is to spotlight the kids, include them in the festivities as Zaq said and to receive the bracha of the hamalach hagoel from the community. In more RW shuls the emphasis is on the aliya itself out of the conviction that every male, no matter his age, should be called up to the Torah on ST. A quick search that I did in an attempt to clarify the reasons for this minhag turned up two ideas:
First, from the Malbushey Yom Tov, a 17th century halachic work from the area of Poland/Ashkenaz - comes the following explanation: שגם הם ידעו, שיש להם אות וחלק בתורה ולחנכם במצוות ולשתפם בשמחת התורה - in other words, mainly for purposes of chinuch and inclusion in the joy of Torah.
I also found this (from a site associated with Yated Ne'eman USA): "some authorities explain that the minhag of Kol Hane’arim, when all the small boys are given an aliyah, is in memory of the mitzvah of Hakhel where the Torah commands, Gather the people together, men, women, and children (Devorim 31:12)."
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amother


 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 1:43 am
Quote:
As I keep saying, this has nothing to do with unfairness. In my communities, it was just what was done.

You did say in your OP that you never heard of something so unfair.

Quote:
But otherwise? Depends ond the shul I would say. The more modern ones would certainly have girls go up, the less modern ones probably don't. Why is anyone surprised about this?

Not surprised at all. I am surprised that there are people here who are so shocked that girls dont go. In my shul, girls over age 2-3 are never in the mens section. In those shuls where 7-8 girls year olds are by the men, why shouldn't they go on the bima too?
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 1:52 am
amother wrote:
Quote:
As I keep saying, this has nothing to do with unfairness. In my communities, it was just what was done.

You did say in your OP that you never heard of something so unfair.

Quote:
But otherwise? Depends ond the shul I would say. The more modern ones would certainly have girls go up, the less modern ones probably don't. Why is anyone surprised about this?

Not surprised at all. I am surprised that there are people here who are so shocked that girls dont go. In my shul, girls over age 2-3 are never in the mens section. In those shuls where 7-8 girls year olds are by the men, why shouldn't they go on the bima too?
I think we are shocked because that is all we know. When I read this in another place, someone writing about her son going up, I first thought she had no girls, but then it came out more that, no, it was just for the boys and, yes, I was shocked because it was something new to me that I had never even thought was a thing. Does that make any more sense?

And you are correct that in my OP I said it was unfair. I think my view changed over this thread. Just different Smile
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 3:23 am
naturalmom5 wrote:
I think we're all too caught up in the strict letter of the law. According to the strict letter of the law females aren't chiyuv in much of anything. So, halacha lmseah, what does that leave us? We can pretty much wiggle out of most of Judaism . But then what's going to make us want to stay Jewish ? Guilt? Social pressure? Indoctrination? There is such a concept of darche darche noam. And this applies equally to both males and females. Never forget that future Jewish generations depend on women not men.


Actually after 3 chinuch is on men.
Judaism is not about barefoot in the kitchen Wink

Women still have tons of things to do and not do, and I actually feel a need to "go breathe somewhere else" when I hear of Gemara, women shukling, zimun and all that jazz. Let me be me, a happy yiddishe vieb. My mother and grandmothers didn't have to deal with this. Or get me maids and we'll discuss. LOL. I could see myself leaving Orthodoxy over those things being the new norm. Thankfully in my velt even most MO haven't heard of them, positively or at all.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 6:09 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
But see thats not the issue.
No girl is saying "hey, its unfair. I want to be up there too". Its just done that they are part of it. I never saw a girl being told "no, you cant go up there for that bracha." On the contrary. In the shuls I have gone to the rabbanim herd ALL of the little children up there.

As I keep saying, this has nothing to do with unfairness. In my communities, it was just what was done.


I agree, it's not about fairness. If the little girls want to go, let them. It's not hurting anybody. I think you made this topic controversial with you first post, which ended in- How is this fair????
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 6:18 am
zaq wrote:
Could it possibly be because ALL the neshamos of the Jewish people were present at Har Sinai, ALL the people heard the voice of G-d, ALL the people responded Naaseh veNishma, and G-d told Moshe to address BOTH Bnei Yisrael AND Beit Yaakov, with Rashi explaining that Bnei Yisrael is the men and Beit Yaakov is the women, just in case you didn't know that from having attended a beit yakkov school? You know, I think we might have something there! Yep, I think that must be it.

The boys. are.not.getting.a. real.aliyah any more than the girls are, got that? It's a mock aliyah to make them feel a part of the festivities. Bringing a little boy up to the bimah for an "aliyah"--and most certainluy bringing an infant--is every inch as ridiculous as you feel bringing a little girl is, or every inch as right and appropriate as other people feel it is.


If you read ALL my posts you will see that I clarified that it's not the little girls by Kol hanearim which is ridiculous, but the whole fuss about getting them there which is ridiculous. If they happen to be on the men's side, and go, then no big deal. And I also apologized for my original statement because it came out harsher then I intended it too, and it also did not explain my position clearly. I am in no way against girls going for Kol hanearim if that's what they want to do. I'm against the whole issue being turned into a fairness issue.
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stkop




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 8:09 am
Last year my daughter, who was 4, got kicked out by kol haneorim by the rabbi... my husband was pretty embarrased. This year the Rabbi's 4 year old granddaughter went under the tallis and no one said anything. Double standard if you ask me. I remember as a kid going under the tallis though.....
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eschaya




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 9:35 am
naturalmom5 wrote:
I think we're all too caught up in the strict letter of the law. According to the strict letter of the law females aren't chiyuv in much of anything. So, halacha lmseah, what does that leave us? We can pretty much wiggle out of most of Judaism . But then what's going to make us want to stay Jewish ? Guilt? Social pressure? Indoctrination? There is such a concept of darche darche noam. And this applies equally to both males and females. Never forget that future Jewish generations depend on women not men.


You are so right, naturalmom - and this is why, even girls are not supposed to be taught Torah (yes, even Torah shebichsav) according to the gemara, the Bais Yaakov movement was started... it was considered an eis laasos because we were going to lose the Jewish people as a whole (remember, it's a matrilinear thing) when girls were allowed to learn every secular study, engage their minds and find how wonderful that feels in all subjects other than Torah. It's a problem. If you are in a very cloistered community and still think that you are unable to learn anything (Torah or secular) then you are ok. If you are in a very modern community where you are told that you have equal ability and right to learn Torah and secular studies you are ok too. But if you are in a community where you know (and enjoy, if you are an intellectual person) that you can plumb the depths of every chochmah in the world other than Torah... well tell me, where are you going to focus your energies? I find this so sad and it's something I struggle with all the time. I am very smart and in seminary my teachers told me "you can find everything you seek in the Torah", except they neglected to focus on the fact that, min-Hatorah, I am not supposed to actually learn Torah (or at least not in great depth, nowadays). So instead of going into chinuch as they (and FIL) tried to convince me, I'm now working on my 3rd degree in a secular field where I find great sippuk... and for me I see Yad Hashem through it too. Is this a shame? Sure. Might this affect the continuity of the Jewish people? I think so. Will there come another time to decide it is again an "eis laasos" and make some changes in the attitudes and rights of women? I think it's coming, though I hope they don't wait for our people to be nearing the brink of disaster before making changes.
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eschaya




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 9:38 am
In our shul there are no official rules, no girls being kicked out. Definitely all the little girls go, and usually by the time a girl is old enough, she will feel uncomfortable being under the tallis on the men's side and decides on her own not to go. I've never seen a mainstream older girl go over, not because others coerced her to stay, but because she makes that decision on her own. On rare occasions if there is an older girl (like all of 8 years old) there, it is would be because she comes from an in-the-process-of-becoming-more-frum family, and then isn't that beautiful to see, a young girl who doesn't know so much but knows that she wants to be close to the torah if given the opportunity.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 9:48 am
What is the fear exactly? Girls cannot go up because what will happen then? They will turn conservative and want to get aliyos? They will be looked upon laschiveously by the men and little boys? What is the concern.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 9:58 am
marina wrote:
What is the fear exactly? Girls cannot go up because what will happen then? They will turn conservative and want to get aliyos? They will be looked upon laschiveously by the men and little boys? What is the concern.


The concern is turning it into a fairness issue. If little girls want to go be with their daddies, by all means, let them. Just don't do it because it's unfair. I think pretty much everyone in this discussion agreed that it's not a big deal.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 10:00 am
mommy2b2c wrote:
The concern is turning it into a fairness issue. If little girls want to go be with their daddies, by all means, let them. Just don't do it because it's unfair. I think pretty much everyone in this discussion agreed that it's not a big deal.
But as we keep on saying, this is not about being fair. I never knew that there were communities where girls didnt go up. Its just the way its done in the MO world. Girls go up. Nothing to do with making it fair or not.
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dimyona




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 10:23 am
Throughout my chareidi upbringing, I've never heard of girls being on the bimah by kol hanearim. Anyone who knows me well enough likely already knows where I stand on this issue Smile. But thinking about it now, I think that it's more hurtful for little girls to be allowed to have an aliyah, and then ban the practice as they get older.

If you believe there are are categorically inherent spiritual differences between genders that are behind their roles in shul; I may disagree with you, but I don't see why little girls would be different than older women. That is, unless you see any woman past puberty as a distracting relations object that is undeserving of physical access to the Torah. That's what I would feel like if I was told not to approach the bimah after a certain age.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 10:31 am
dimyona wrote:
Throughout my chareidi upbringing, I've never heard of girls being on the bimah by kol hanearim. Anyone who knows me well enough likely already knows where I stand on this issue Smile. But thinking about it now, I think that it's more hurtful for little girls to be allowed to have an aliyah, and then ban the practice as they get older.

If you believe there are are categorically inherent spiritual differences between genders that are behind their roles in shul; I may disagree with you, but I don't see why little girls would be different than older women. That is, unless you see any woman past puberty as a distracting relations object that is undeserving of physical access to the Torah. That's what I would feel like if I was told not to approach the bimah after a certain age.
But they are not going up for the aliyah. We were always told that this was a bracha given to all of the children under a talit and that made sense as the kohanim bless us from under a talit and we always have hamalach hagoel sung as well.
No girl that I ever knew of who went under the talit for kol hanearim ever felt like they got an aliyah and then had it taken from them.
Im sorry but thats a reall stretch.
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