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Carpool - was I wrong?
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 1:14 pm
When the idea was first floated for Agudas Israel to provide busing for Jewish schools in Chicago, the Agudah dayan, Rabbi Shmuel Fuerst, sh"lita, fully endorsed it, commenting, "More sinas chinom occurs as a result of carpools than any other cause."

From the discussion here, it sounds like he was right!

I'm ITA with Marina on this.

Yes, it was rude for the neighbor to assume that the OP has nothing better to do than operate a car service, but it sounds like she's socially clueness, not genuinely mean-spirited or spoiled. The fact that she wanted to coordinate her child's activities suggests that she's at least trying to think of someone other than herself.

That said, there's nothing wrong with making it an informal carpool. Just say, "I'll be happy to give Shloimie a ride home whenever we're coming straight home, but sometimes we have appointments or other commitments, so please make backup arrangements in case I'm not available."
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Emotional




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 1:26 pm
Barbara wrote:
In our school, after school runs by semester. So I'd say until the end of January, at least.

And sure, if it really is no big deal for you, you do it.

But then what happens when, one week, you schedule another kid's doctor's appointment that day. Now you have to find a ride not only for your kid, but for the other kid as well. Or, what if your kid is sick?

People should never assume that certain aren't a "big deal." Sometimes they are.


I don't get the lack of communication here. I really don't.
If you are driving my kid as a favor, why on earth would I expect you to have to find my kid a ride if your kid is sick? Or if you have an appointment for your kid? That would never be my understanding. My understanding would be that you let me know as soon as you are able that you cannot drive my kids that day, and I say "alright thanks for letting me know" and I make other arrangements. It's my problem. I don't know why you're getting so worked up about this.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 1:36 pm
Barbara wrote:
In our school, after school runs by semester. So I'd say until the end of January, at least.

And sure, if it really is no big deal for you, you do it.

But then what happens when, one week, you schedule another kid's doctor's appointment that day. Now you have to find a ride not only for your kid, but for the other kid as well. Or, what if your kid is sick?

People should never assume that certain things aren't a "big deal." Sometimes they are.


1. Please note that I have not used the term "big deal" - no need to cite that in quoting my post.

2. What to do when your kid is sick? Or has a doctor's appt? How difficult is this? You call up the parent and say- hey, my kid is sick and has a doctor's appt, can you figure something else out for your child? It is not a formal carpool situation where she takes your child and you take hers- it's that you are doing her a favor and picking the child up once a week. So you can certainly explain that on occassion, it won't work out.
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Notsobusy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 1:38 pm
Emotional wrote:
I don't get the lack of communication here. I really don't.
If you are driving my kid as a favor, why on earth would I expect you to have to find my kid a ride if your kid is sick? Or if you have an appointment for your kid? That would never be my understanding. My understanding would be that you let me know as soon as you are able that you cannot drive my kids that day, and I say "alright thanks for letting me know" and I make other arrangements. It's my problem. I don't know why you're getting so worked up about this.


There are times I don't know until the last minute that I'm not going straight home. I may have planned to go get groceries on the way home from work, but left work late and didn't have time. If I have to go back to my neighborhood before I go shopping to drop off your kid, instead of stopping at the grocery on the way home, then supper will be even later. Sometimes I'll be driving by the park, say oh the weather is great today, lets stop and play. Can't do that if I have to bring your kid home.
While most of the time it wouldn't be a problem, sometimes it can be. I need to have flexibility, that's why I don't carpool.
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EmesOrNT




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 1:40 pm
Why can't you say yes, but only when I can? Why is it so difficult to just say want you want? Instead of venting, have an adult conversation.
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Emotional




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 1:45 pm
glutenless wrote:
There are times I don't know until the last minute that I'm not going straight home. I may have planned to go get groceries on the way home from work, but left work late and didn't have time. If I have to go back to my neighborhood before I go shopping to drop off your kid, instead of stopping at the grocery on the way home, then supper will be even later. Sometimes I'll be driving by the park, say oh the weather is great today, lets stop and play. Can't do that if I have to bring your kid home.
While most of the time it wouldn't be a problem, sometimes it can be. I need to have flexibility, that's why I don't carpool.

So based on what you're saying, a person can never ever ask someone else for a favor because the second person may have a change of plans, or may want to go shopping, or may want to stop at the park, and will resent being committed. So that means even if I have a driver's license but I'm having car trouble, or I'm stuck somewhere delayed unexpectedly, I can't call you to ask you to bail me out because you will resent that it may get in the way on the off chance you decide you are taking kids to the park. Is that what you' saying?
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Notsobusy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 1:52 pm
Emotional wrote:
So based on what you're saying, a person can never ever ask someone else for a favor because the second person may have a change of plans, or may want to go shopping, or may want to stop at the park, and will resent being committed. So that means even if I have a driver's license but I'm having car trouble, or I'm stuck somewhere delayed unexpectedly, I can't call you to ask you to bail me out because you will resent that it may get in the way on the off chance you decide you are taking kids to the park. Is that what you' saying?


That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I would not want to make a commitment for a whole year or many months. If you ask me for a favor once in a while I have no problem working it into my schedule, as a matter of fact I would be thrilled. I love to help people out.
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 1:52 pm
My mother was always the driver. She sometimes let us out to play in a park halfway home... All 12-14 kids getting everyone home 10-20min late. All the other kids parents paid for the privilege of not driving 25-45min each way 2x a day.
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 1:58 pm
Fox wrote:
When the idea was first floated for Agudas Israel to provide busing for Jewish schools in Chicago, the Agudah dayan, Rabbi Shmuel Fuerst, sh"lita, fully endorsed it, commenting, "More sinas chinom occurs as a result of carpools than any other cause."

From the discussion here, it sounds like he was right!



The menahel of our Beis Yaakov has said that although the mishna talks about 3 ways you can judge a person (bkiso, b'kaaso, b'koso), he would add a fourth. B'karpoolo.

One is under absolutely no obligation to take on a carpool that doesn't feel comfortable.

It might be good middos to straighten out with the other party whenever possible, so that it can be comfortable. But that isn't always possible.

In this case, OP tried, by her question, and got no reasonable response. The child is not stranded. I see no problem with saying no under those circumstances. None at all.

I have been on all ends of the carpool situation. I have challenging kids, and sometimes, others have chosen not to carpool with me because of it. I have dealt with other people's challenging kids, and sometimes been fine, and sometimes regretted it. I have set up 5 way carpool schedules, smoothing over ruffled feelings and scheduling difficulties.

Overall, I think that in this, as in anything else, one needs to aim for generosity of spirit, but use common sense.

There is no point in stressing oneself out over a carpool, and then having it mess up your SB with DH or kids because you are so put out.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 2:12 pm
imasinger wrote:
The menahel of our Beis Yaakov has said that although the mishna talks about 3 ways you can judge a person (bkiso, b'kaaso, b'koso), he would add a fourth. B'karpoolo.

One is under absolutely no obligation to take on a carpool that doesn't feel comfortable.

It might be good middos to straighten out with the other party whenever possible, so that it can be comfortable. But that isn't always possible.

In this case, OP tried, by her question, and got no reasonable response. The child is not stranded. I see no problem with saying no under those circumstances. None at all.

I have been on all ends of the carpool situation. I have challenging kids, and sometimes, others have chosen not to carpool with me because of it. I have dealt with other people's challenging kids, and sometimes been fine, and sometimes regretted it. I have set up 5 way carpool schedules, smoothing over ruffled feelings and scheduling difficulties.

Overall, I think that in this, as in anything else, one needs to aim for generosity of spirit, but use common sense.

There is no point in stressing oneself out over a carpool, and then having it mess up your SB with DH or kids because you are so put out.


No one ever likes carpooling with us because we drive a sedan.

In the bar mitzvah year, we'd get emails saying, "Rivky will be driving Shloimy, Yossi, Lior, Daniel, Uri, Shmuel and Ari, and Barbara will be picking up." Me "I'll be glad to pick up, but I can only take 4 boys." Oyyyyy. People even suggested that we trade in our car for a minivan, which wasn't happening. In the end, we just drove both ways most weeks, and took whomever didn't have a ride otherwise. (And, FTR, that included the kid whose parents didn't drive. "No big deal." Except that after asking for a ride, they didn't bother to tell me when the kid went with someone else, and didn't answer their phone or messages so I was sitting in front of their house for 20 minutes waiting for the kid.)
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Notsobusy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 2:19 pm
Barbara wrote:
No one ever likes carpooling with us because we drive a sedan.

In the bar mitzvah year, we'd get emails saying, "Rivky will be driving Shloimy, Yossi, Lior, Daniel, Uri, Shmuel and Ari, and Barbara will be picking up." Me "I'll be glad to pick up, but I can only take 4 boys." Oyyyyy. People even suggested that we trade in our car for a minivan, which wasn't happening. In the end, we just drove both ways most weeks, and took whomever didn't have a ride otherwise. (And, FTR, that included the kid whose parents didn't drive. "No big deal." Except that after asking for a ride, they didn't bother to tell me when the kid went with someone else, and didn't answer their phone or messages so I was sitting in front of their house for 20 minutes waiting for the kid.)

I once did carpool for one month of daycamp with someone because she was desperate. I would get to her house, beep and beep, go knock on the door, Sorry, I forgot to tell you she has an appointment- she's not coming with you today. Multiple times I waited for her to pick up my kids, finally called her, to hear, it's my turn today, I didn't realize. Both of those examples happened multiple times during that one month. She now runs a day camp which my dd's friend went to this summer. Dd really wanted to go there, and I absolutely refused.
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Emotional




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 3:28 pm
Barbara wrote:
No one ever likes carpooling with us because we drive a sedan.

In the bar mitzvah year, we'd get emails saying, "Rivky will be driving Shloimy, Yossi, Lior, Daniel, Uri, Shmuel and Ari, and Barbara will be picking up." Me "I'll be glad to pick up, but I can only take 4 boys." Oyyyyy. People even suggested that we trade in our car for a minivan, which wasn't happening. In the end, we just drove both ways most weeks, and took whomever didn't have a ride otherwise. (And, FTR, that included the kid whose parents didn't drive. "No big deal." Except that after asking for a ride, they didn't bother to tell me when the kid went with someone else, and didn't answer their phone or messages so I was sitting in front of their house for 20 minutes waiting for the kid.)

I'm sorry that people who don't drive get under your skin in a very personal way, Barbara.
Throughout this thread you have been lashing out at me because I committed the cardinal sin of using the words "no big deal". Despite the fact that I have clarified, apologized, explained, etc.
Despite the fact that I have repeated that I don't believe anyone owes me anything just because I don't drive.
We all make mistakes in life. My not learning to drive was one of them. It's not something I'm proud of, and I'm doing what I can about it.
My original goal in responding to the OP was just to provide a glimpse into the life of someone who has to sometimes be dependent on the kindness of others. I made it clear that I don't believe that being dependent gives one a license to feel that favors are owed to them. And that when possible one should offer payment, or other favors in return, or at least profuse gratitude.
I'm sorry if you were traumatized by mean, inconsiderate non-drivers. I hope that with my driver's license I will instantly become the type of person you, and people like you, will approve of.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 3:37 pm
Emotional wrote:
I'm sorry that people who don't drive get under your skin in a very personal way, Barbara.
Throughout this thread you have been lashing out at me because I committed the cardinal sin of using the words "no big deal". Despite the fact that I have clarified, apologized, explained, etc.
Despite the fact that I have repeated that I don't believe anyone owes me anything just because I don't drive.
We all make mistakes in life. My not learning to drive was one of them. It's not something I'm proud of, and I'm doing what I can about it.
My original goal in responding to the OP was just to provide a glimpse into the life of someone who has to sometimes be dependent on the kindness of others. I made it clear that I don't believe that being dependent gives one a license to feel that favors ate owed to them. And that when possible one should offer payment, or other favors in return, or at least profuse gratitude.
I'm sorry if you were traumatized by mean, inconsiderate non-drivers. I hope that with my driver's license I will instantly become the type of person you, and people like you, will approve of.


Oh, I'm so sorry that you're offended.

You're right. Because I have a drivers' license, its no big deal for me to do things for other people. I shouldn't be bothered by waiting 20 minutes for a kid whose parents couldn't be bothered to tell me that he no longer needed a ride. The gas I burned, the time I wasted, the fact that my child was late. No matter. And they did the same thing multiple times.

And you haven't made one darned thing clear, except that you enjoy attacking me. Attack, attack, attack. All because I committed the cardinal sin of pointing out that sometimes doing a favor for others is a big deal.
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Emotional




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 3:40 pm
Barbara wrote:
Oh, I'm so sorry that you're offended.

You're right. Because I have a drivers' license, its no big deal for me to do things for other people. I shouldn't be bothered by waiting 20 minutes for a kid whose parents couldn't be bothered to tell me that he no longer needed a ride. The gas I burned, the time I wasted, the fact that my child was late. No matter. And they did the same thing multiple times.

And you haven't made one darned thing clear, except that you enjoy attacking me. Attack, attack, attack. All because I committed the cardinal sin of pointing out that sometimes doing a favor for others is a big deal.

I've had enough sinas chinam for one day. I'm outta here.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 4:03 pm
marina wrote:
1. Please note that I have not used the term "big deal" - no need to cite that in quoting my post.

2. What to do when your kid is sick? Or has a doctor's appt? How difficult is this? You call up the parent and say- hey, my kid is sick and has a doctor's appt, can you figure something else out for your child? It is not a formal carpool situation where she takes your child and you take hers- it's that you are doing her a favor and picking the child up once a week. So you can certainly explain that on occassion, it won't work out.


My impression is that this was intended to be a formal thing. The other person specifically signed her child up for an activity on the same day as OP's child, with the expectation that OP would drive her child home every week.

I've had this conversation elsewhere, with other people, on other groups. The consensus has always been that once you commit, you're committed. If your kids are sick and not going to school, you either find someone who will switch with you, or you drive anyway. Because the other kids are depending upon you, and have no other way to get to or from school.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 5:14 pm
Barbara wrote:
My impression is that this was intended to be a formal thing. The other person specifically signed her child up for an activity on the same day as OP's child, with the expectation that OP would drive her child home every week.

I've had this conversation elsewhere, with other people, on other groups. The consensus has always been that once you commit, you're committed. If your kids are sick and not going to school, you either find someone who will switch with you, or you drive anyway. Because the other kids are depending upon you, and have no other way to get to or from school.


But in this case the child in question has a babysitter who could come out and get the kid if the carpool is not available. So the OP would not be stuck finding the kid a ride. This is not really a carpool, since its one way, which means OP does not owe the friend anything.
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 5:19 pm
imasinger wrote:
The menahel of our Beis Yaakov has said that although the mishna talks about 3 ways you can judge a person (bkiso, b'kaaso, b'koso), he would add a fourth. B'karpoolo.


Rolling Laughter
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 5:32 pm
Barbara wrote:
My impression is that this was intended to be a formal thing. The other person specifically signed her child up for an activity on the same day as OP's child, with the expectation that OP would drive her child home every week.

I've had this conversation elsewhere, with other people, on other groups. The consensus has always been that once you commit, you're committed. If your kids are sick and not going to school, you either find someone who will switch with you, or you drive anyway. Because the other kids are depending upon you, and have no other way to get to or from school.


Your commitment only goes as far as what you actually committed to. For example, in the ops situation if she is driving past the kids house anyway, she can make a commitment that sounds something like this, " I would love to drive josh home whenever I am able, but I cannot commit to every week so please have a back up plan for the days it won't work do me."
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amother


 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 6:22 pm
amother wrote:
I had a neighbor ask me if I can take her son with my son and I said sure no problem ill call you before I leave but know that I am not on a schedule and ill call before I leave my house but to me as a non working mom I don't drop my kid off every day at 9 it could be some days 9:30 and even 10. That's my decision.

She worked out of her house so I guess she wanted her son out as early as possible so she started dropping her son off in the morning if I didn't leave by 9:15.

But I was doing her a favor and no I don't want to babysit your child in the morning.


people have chutzpah
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 22 2014, 7:42 pm
Barbara wrote:
My impression is that this was intended to be a formal thing. The other person specifically signed her child up for an activity on the same day as OP's child, with the expectation that OP would drive her child home every week.


That may have been the neighbor's desire, but that doesn't mean the OP can't negotiate different, less formal terms. Even more so, given that the neighbor has a babysitter who could theoretically pick up the child on those occasions when it doesn't work for the OP.

I've been in both formal and informal carpools. You are correct that the formal carpools involve a lot of responsibility and often involve several families. The informal carpools basically ran on the premise that it was stupid and wasteful for two people to pull up to the school and then drive home to the same block while also acknowledging that sometimes it's just not possible or convenient to give rides.

Frankly, I always found the informal carpools to be more congenial. As along as everyone understands that it's an "as available" carpool and makes backup plans, things ran very smoothly.
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