Asian costume for 2 year old girl, baby boy and us

marina

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 9:34 pm

Also, I thought about it and it depends on the kids. If I specifically knew the kids dressed up as chassidim were these wild and rude teens who yell slurs, I'd be offended. If it was my 8 year old neighbor who hangs out with us all the time, I'd think it was adorable and funny. If it was just regular kids I didn't know, I'd smile and assume it was meant well and I'd say: wow, that is a great outfit

mommyla

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 9:53 pm

marina wrote:

Yes!

If an anti-Semitic neighbor dressed as a Jew, I'd know it was intended to be malicious. But our friendly self-proclaimed "Shabbos [non jew]" [yes, he introduced himself and offered his services] from next door who is genuinely interested in and respectful of our lifestyle? That would be a great costume.

allrgymama

Wed, Oct 29 2014, 11:21 pm

But isn't that the point? You've both just said that you would be okay with the people already familiar with your culture (to whatever limited degree) dressing up Jewish.

To use your example, a shabbos [gentile] is someone aware of the culture of shabbos, the idea that there are things we can't do, and respectful enough of that to offer his services.

If OP were to discover an equal amount about Asian culture, then that would likewise be respectful.

happybeingamom

Thu, Oct 30 2014, 9:19 am

Is it offensive when non-chasidim dress as chasidim on Purim. I see that as a popular costume.

One year I was in E"Y before purim and bought costumes on was of a Yerushalmi. I didn't think that was offensive.

I don't see wearing a costume of a different group of people as offensive unless there is obvious mocking.

Fox

Thu, Oct 30 2014, 11:18 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

Can we just NOT appropriate other people's cultures please?

Are our imaginations SO limited t hat we cannot possibly think of anything else?

Rolling Eyes

Like I said, I think the concept of "cultural appropriation" is more than a little suspect, and it's extremely suspect when it comes to costumes for various holidays.

Aside from costumes that reinforce a negative stereotype (e.g., that Irish drink too much and that Scots are cheap) or reference historically-charged issues (e.g., "blackface"), I think there is a place for costumes representing other cultures, and I think it's an important way that young children can approach cultural diversity in a positive, fun way.

I fear we are moving toward a society in which the first and sometimes only lesson kids learn about another culture is (a) all the bad things that they did or had done to them; and (b) the laundry list of things that might possibly be offensive to a member of that culture. This should not be construed as a "get over it" rant; I believe there is definitely a time and place for teaching and discussing those issues, but only if the larger picture is first established.

Cultural costumes can be offensive, to be sure. But they can also be powerful tools in teaching empathy and introducing kids to places and people who don't necessarily populate their daily lives.

marina

Thu, Oct 30 2014, 1:13 pm

I love geisha girl costumes and I think they look pretty and I think my hair looks good that way. Can I wear the costume just for that reason, without learning anything about the culture?

Ok, what if I am asian-looking? Which I am, my grandma was born in Mongolia and when I was younger people asked me if I'm the kid from the Bamboo Cradle. I look asian, but my culture is not asian at all.

It's not always black and white.

allrgymama

Thu, Oct 30 2014, 1:21 pm

marina wrote:

I think especially not in your case as, when you walk down the street, people will assume that it's your culture and, as it is not, that would be appropriation, wouldn't it?

I do realize that life is usually not clear cut but people of mixed race who lean more towards one parent struggle and suffer because of this on a daily basis.

cityofgold

Thu, Oct 30 2014, 4:02 pm

As Marina says, it's not black & white.

At first, I was thinking, "I don't see anything wrong with an Asian costume," but then I remembered that I'm always horrified when I see kids dressed up as blacks for purim. In my head, the difference is that I've never heard people making fun of Asians, but I've heard plenty of nasty, racist anti-African American "jokes."

My personal conclusion would be that while I don't see an issue with it per se, I do understand that others might find it offensive, and I respect their side and it's not worth the chance of hurting people.

ElTam

Thu, Oct 30 2014, 8:58 pm

If people of a culture are taking the time to put together sophisticated campaigns to get across the point that it's offensive to them, and you chose not to listen, then that is a middos question.

That's what these campaigns are saying: When you do this, it hurts me.

I can't understand how people can be aware of these campaigns and go ahead as planned.

marina

Fri, Oct 31 2014, 4:36 pm

ElTam wrote:

Ok, so if that girl, in that photo, changed her mind and dressed up like that, it would be ok? Or not ok? Or would she be a self-hating Asian?

To be more specific, can I dress up like a russian bubby, with mismatched clothes and bright red lipstick and a pot of borscht? Is that okay?

ElTam

Fri, Oct 31 2014, 4:44 pm

You raise a good question, Marina. I don't know. I'm a typical American Heinz 57 Mutt. I have no ethnic heritage to dress up as.

I could dress up as a Daughter of the American Revolution, I guess.

I also qualify as a Daughter of the Confederacy, but I wouldn't dress up as that, for the same reason why I've never joined the organization. Wink

I guess you'll have to poll your local Russian bubbies and see what they say. I'll be interested in the results.

sky

Sat, Nov 01 2014, 7:51 pm

ElTam wrote:

who is behind the campaign. Is it members of the actual culture or an American organization that has decided to protect them?

ElTam

Sat, Nov 01 2014, 9:48 pm

Quote:

who is behind the campaign. Is it members of the actual culture or an American organization that has decided to protect them?

The campaign was started by a group of students at Ohio State University, students who are African AMERICAN, Asian AMERICAN, Native AMERICAN, etc... So they are BOTH from the "actual culture" and "American."

From www.knowyourmeme.com

Quote:

In late October of 2011, a student organization at Ohio University named “Students Teaching Against Racism in Society”[8] (STARS) launched a campaign to raise awareness about racially insensitive Halloween costumes. On October 21st, the president of the organization posted several images of awareness posters on her Tumblr blog

You can read more in an CNN story about the group, and the campaign, and the backlash against it here:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/26/......html

I can't believe that a group of Jews is actually having this conversation.

Simple1

Sat, Nov 01 2014, 10:21 pm

ElTam wrote:

I can't understand how people can be aware of these campaigns and go ahead as planned.

I would assume that most frum people who dress up like that are not aware of any such campaigns . This forum us the first I've heard of it. And FTR we personally, never did Asian costumes.

sky

Sat, Nov 01 2014, 10:36 pm

ElTam wrote:

Quote:

who is behind the campaign. Is it members of the actual culture or an American organization that has decided to protect them?

Quote:

the reason I asked (and used the word American) is because often the ADL (or some other American organization) comes out with statements that things are offensive to Jews that I and I am assuming many others don't take as offensive. So I was wondering who was behind the push.

marina

Mon, Nov 03 2014, 11:00 am

ElTam wrote:

I guess you'll have to poll your local Russian bubbies and see what they say. I'll be interested in the results.

I thought you were from overseas!