Pro vaccine/Anti vaccine...What about vaccine safety?

yogabird

Thu, Nov 13 2014, 8:01 pm

Barbara wrote:

I'm confused.

You don't wish the kind of unpleasantness caused by chicken pox (and IME what she describes is pretty typical; when I grew up, there was no vaccine, everyone got chicken pox, and the experience of everyone I know was more or less miserable), but don't think the vaccine is necessary. Isn't that pretty much wishing that everyone has that kind of misery?

I don't wish any kind of suffering upon anyone, yet I personally don't think (this kind of transient) suffering warrants prevention using risky or unsafe measures.

Still confused?

Scrabble123

Thu, Nov 13 2014, 8:46 pm

I think that if we're on the topic of Chickenpox, it is important to discuss the following: With the decrease of wild Chickenpox cases, we have seen an increase in Shingles. In the simplest terms, Shingles is a reactivation of the Chickenpox virus that affects people's nerves. The Chickenpox virus lays dormant in an individual and may attack them a Shingles during times of low immunity or old age. Shingles sometimes causes life long nerve pain, but that is not always the case. It is believed that through being exposed to children with chicken pox, adults and others "reboosted" their immunity to Chickenpox, giving protection from Shingles. There were studies done showing that mothers who cared for Chickenpox infection children were 1/5th as likely to develop Shingles as mothers who were not in contact with Chickenpox infected individuals.

The question is: "Do the complications from Chickenpox outweigh its possible indirect impact on the increase of Shingles cases?" This is a debate that is acknowledged worldwide. Some countries are undecided, leaving that decision up to the individual; however the U.S. has decided for us: They decided yes. The Chickenpox vaccine has decreased the amount of Chickenpox related deaths by more than 50%.

I also believe that the Chickenpox Vaccine is worth giving even with it's possible indirect connection to an increase in Shingles infections. I believe that if Shingles infections become a great health concern, that the Shingles vaccine will be tested and tried in different age groups (rather than its current 65+). Chickenpox can be a serious disease and can result in complications for otherwise healthy children, although it is true that most healthy kids are ok with Chickenpox, but you know what? Even more healthy kids are okay with vaccines....

Actually, Chickenpox is not the only time that doctors and governments make decisions regarding such issues. Take the acellular pertussis vaccine for instance. Many countries in the world give the DTP shot, and not the DTaP and Tdap. The DTP shot does provide longer lasting immunity to Pertussis, but the government decided that using the acellular DTaP and Tdap were safer alternatives. It is also why the booster age was changed from 16 to 11 or 12 (I don't have a schedule in front of me).

Think1st

Thu, Nov 13 2014, 8:49 pm

yogabird wrote:

I don't wish any kind of suffering upon anyone, yet I personally don't think (this kind of transient) suffering warrants prevention using risky or unsafe measures.

Still confused?

This is the 2010 UN/WHO report ,count how many vaccines a US baby gets in the 1st year & infant mortality rate .compare to the Japanese 1st year schedule & 1st year infant death rate

http://www.childinfo.org/files.....n.pdf

Here is a 2009 list of developed nations comparing vaccine & death rates

http://www.betternaturalhealin.....e.pdf

"Did you get your flu shot? If not, it's never too late!". I agree you can wait till age120 before taking a flu shot

Last edited by Think1st on Thu, Nov 13 2014, 8:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Thu, Nov 13 2014, 8:52 pm

Think1st wrote:

This is the UN/WHO report ,count how many vaccines a US baby gets in the 1st year & infant mortality rate .compare to the Japanese 1st year schedule & 1st year infant death rate

http://www.childinfo.org/files.....n.pdf

Here is another list of developed nations comparing vaccine & death rates

http://www.betternaturalhealin.....e.pdf

very early preemies like before 23 weeks gestation are also included in the infant death rate you're referring to.
That is b/c the us has better preemie meds than the rest of the world, but those babies may not make it rachmona letzon.
some countries give more vaccines than the us or equally the same
those charts prove nothing

amother

Thu, Nov 13 2014, 9:04 pm

Scrabble123 wrote:

The question is: "Do the complications from Chickenpox outweigh its possible indirect impact on the increase of Shingles cases?" This is a debate that is acknowledged worldwide. Some countries are undecided, leaving that decision up to the individual; however the U.S. has decided for us: They decided yes. The Chickenpox vaccine has decreased the amount of Chickenpox related deaths by more than 50%.

why am I not surprised? and that way Big Pharma gets to make money off of TWO vaccines instead of just one.

amother

Thu, Nov 13 2014, 9:11 pm

Think1st wrote:

It is not only US ,Bahrain has similar vax sched as US & similar infant death rate.

Can you find 1 country that gives more vaccines than US? .Out of 35 developed nations the more cramped the vax schedule the higher the infant mortality

Bill hr1757 is stuck in congress for almost 2 years . They refuse to publicize the a comparison between vaccinated & vaccinated

what do you think the infant death rate is in countries where infants die of the vaccine preventable illness?

Think1st

Thu, Nov 13 2014, 9:56 pm

amother wrote:

what do you think the infant death rate is in countries where infants die of the vaccine preventable illness?

Please be more specific . name the country ,name the disease , prove that it was the cause of death, prove that it is vaccine preventable.

According to Mayo clinic, flu shot may triple your chance of hospitalization

They found that children who had received the flu vaccine had three times the risk of hospitalization, as compared to children who had not received the vaccine. In asthmatic children, there was a significantly higher risk of hospitalization in subjects who received the TIV, as compared to those who did not (p= 0.006). But no other measured factors—such as insurance plans or severity of asthma—appeared to affect risk of hospitalization.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22525386

http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....5.htm

amother

Fri, Nov 14 2014, 9:57 am

Scrabble123 wrote:

WADR to the U.S. government and to you, why can't that decision be left to the individual?

Scrabble123

Fri, Nov 14 2014, 12:55 pm

amother wrote:

WADR to the U.S. government and to you, why can't that decision be left to the individual?

I have already answered this question on this thread. Please read my previous posts on this thread regarding freedom and its responsibility. People cannot live up to acceptable responsibility. I also wrote a post about gun control which was a metaphor and not so spot on, but it explains the concept as well.

california2

Fri, Nov 14 2014, 1:14 pm

I am not sure what "has this schedule been studied?" means. There have been many, many studies.
I do understand HY's concern that the article I linked to is too long. however, here's a link to the summary page on comparing vaccine schedules:
http://books.nap.edu/openbook......e=187

There are many, many individual studies of individual questions about the vaccine schedule.
Most recently Pediatrics May 2014 Timely Versus Delayed Early Childhood Vaccination and Seizures (increased risk of seizures if vaccines given on delayed schedule compared to recommended).

Several outcomes are particularly well studied: neurodevelopmental outcome
Eg: On-time Vaccine Receipt in the First Year Does Not Adversely Affect Neuropsychological Outcomes
http://pediatrics.aappublicati.....short

Asthma and autoimmune disease is also well studied.

Not sure if there CAN be a single study of "is it safe?" without a definition of "safe". You have to have a question to put to the data. Just like in getting a blood test, there is no "test for everything." You have to ask a question; are vaccinated kids hospitalized more or less often? Are vaccinated kids more or less likely to have asthma? etc. And of course, are vaccinated kids more or less likely to have vaccine preventable illness...

I am however, unsure what data you're looking for. Is there a specific question we can answer for you truly open minded people out there? I am happy to provide scientific articles, but I need more guidance. What is the specific question?

Barbara

Fri, Nov 14 2014, 1:32 pm

amother wrote:

WADR to the U.S. government and to you, why can't that decision be left to the individual?

The government does leave it up to you.

If you want to adopt a delayed vaccination schedule, no one is going to arrest you or put you in jail. You may need to find a doctor who agrees, and you're going to need to spend more time and money on doctor visits, but that has nothing to do with the US government.

And if you don't vaccinate your children, its very unlikely that the government will take any action. (The rare exception is during an outbreak, when the government may attempt to intervene.)

Now, the government may say that children who aren't vaccinated can't go to school. But that still doesn't mean you have to vaccinate. You can homeschool, for example.

So WADR, your question is nonsensical.

Barbara

Fri, Nov 14 2014, 1:41 pm

Think1st wrote:

Did you know that 49% of US Moms are still breastfeeding at 6 months? That's more than the percentage in Japan at one month. So clearly, the reason that US mortality rates are higher is because of breastfeeding. If we'd just formula feed, like Japanese mothers, the mortality rate would decrease.

Absurd? Yes. But no less absurd that what you say.

As always, you confuse correlation with causation, obfuscating any real information or facts.

Barbara

Fri, Nov 14 2014, 1:50 pm

Think1st wrote:

It helps when you read the material. Or when you try to actually understand it.

Quote:

The study is a retrospective study of 263 children who presented to the Mayo clinic with laboratory confirmed influenza. They found that children who had recieved the TIV vaccine had a 3 times greater risk of hospitalization than those who were not vaccinated. These results raise concerns about the safety and effectiveness of the TIV in children with asthma.

So we're limiting ourselves to the very small population of children who (1) have pre-existing asthma; (2) receive the flu vaccine; and (3) nevertheless get the flu (vs the population of (1) and (3) but not (2)). Among THOSE children, with a small sample size and no control group, those who received the flu vaccine were more likely to be hospitalized. It doesn't address whether asthmatic children who receive the flu vaccine are impacted, the efficacy of the flu vaccine among asthmatic children. Also, it leaves open a huge question -- are sicker asthmatic children more likely to get the flu vaccine? There's no control.

Think1st

Fri, Nov 14 2014, 2:31 pm

Barbara wrote:

I admit I am confused

, how come for pro vaccine arguments, correlation is causation, but for anti vaccine arguments , pro vax lobby sings at the top of their lungs, "correlation is not causation"

The formula companies would try to sell your breastfeeding argument & the Brooklyn Bridge.

Its not only Japan VS USA, in over 30 other developed countries, the higher the vax rate the higher the infant mortality. regardless of pollution, nursing, diet etc.

but as always sticking heads into sand is legal LOL

Childhood mumps protects from ovarian cancer

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm.....1028/

Last edited by Think1st on Fri, Nov 14 2014, 2:46 pm; edited 2 times in total

Barbara

Fri, Nov 14 2014, 2:54 pm

Think1st wrote:

I admit I am confused , how come for pro vaccine arguments, correlation is causation, but for anti vaccine arguments , pro vax lobby sings at the top of their lungs, "correlation is not causation"

The formula companies would try to sell your argument & the Brooklyn Bridge

Its not only Japan VS USA in over 30 other developed countries all the higher the vax rate the higher the infant mortality. regardless of pollution, nursing, diet etc. but as always sticking heads into sand is legal

Childhood mumps protects from ovarian cancer

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm.....1028/

Correlation is not causation in pro-vaccine arguments either. I use a little thing called SCIENCE in support of my arguments. As opposed to your wild conjecture and mis-citation of articles.

And to again demonstrate your inability to accurately report anything whatsoever, the abstract you cite states that mumps MAY have had a role in preventing ovarian cancer. The sample size was small. Its still an interesting study.