Can Israel ever have real peace?

therabbiswife

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 11:05 am

More than ever, myths and mistruths swirl around Israel and the entire Middle East. The line between fact and fiction is blurred with blood and tears, creating false narratives that drip with distortions. But behind the smoke and mirrors lies the hard truth which every thinking person must discover.

http://www.torahcafe.com/rabbi......html

chani8

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 11:27 am

I say, when Moshiach comes.

Btw, not all Arabs are bad. Not all Muslims are fanatics that want us dead. Just saying.

Having lies spread about us, distortions and cover ups of what's really happening, is infuriating and can make us feel hopeless and re-victimized.

When Moshiach comes, the truth will become clear to all who seek the truth. And then the world will see that we are the good guys.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 11:33 am

Jew hatred is not about the Arabs. They are just the most recent and obvious players.

Mitzrayim were not Arabs, and neither were the Romans or Babylonians. The Nazis were not Arabs (although they cozied up to them), Palestinian sympathizers are not all Arabs, White supremacists are not Arabs (they hate Arabs!), Leftists peaceniks think that getting rid of Jews will bring world peace, the list goes on.

Not all Xtian Arabs hate us, most Druze and Bedouin don't hate us, but some African Americans do (and many don't).

In short, Jew hatred knows no bounds or borders. It's as universal as gravity, and just as hard to escape. The only thing we can do is what we have done for centuries - survive.

JMM-uc

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 11:35 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

This is comforting

Ruchel

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 11:56 am

I used to be a big idealist and say yes sure, when on both camps people of good will will prevail to ill will... now, I say I don't see a solution. For the whole world. They get more numerous AND more fanatic. So what? another world war (has veshalom) may calm them for a while... if we win... I see how the pace intensified, every 5 yr, 3, 2, and now this summer and now winter??? wth? all over the world it's worse than it used to be.

The problem with them is not only about Jews. They attack Xtians, Hindus, everyone! But somehow the world sees them as the victims because, yes, many of them are very very poor.

Over the last months my dh who works with many varied circles tells me the non jews are afraid and hateful and they even report stories of ppl converting to stop being bullied if they can't move out.It's not (anymore? has it ever been?) only about Jews. Which means they really are powerful now.... Crying

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 12:27 pm

marina wrote:

re-education

didnt we have this discussion already? And it was told to you and many others that re education will not work. Gosh, the arabs were giving out candytwo days ago, to the children, after the har nof attack. They need waaaaaaaay more than re education.

PinkFridge

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 12:29 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Maybe there will be an army of extraterrestrial pod people that will take over their bodies. We can dream....

Barbara

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 12:30 pm

I have to believe that Israel can have real and lasting peace, because if that's not the case, I don't think it can survive.

As Marina said, education is key.

So is creating an infrastructure and economy with real opportunities, as well as meaningful contacts between Jews and Arabs.

This will require breaking the monopoly of the UNRWA, which is tied to Hamas, to education.

It will require international cooperation and handling of the "refugees." Whatever you think of why they are "refugees"and whom you blame, they exist, and they are virtual captives of Arab nations. They can't integrate into the countries where they live, and they can't emigrate. The US rather quietly tried to broker a deal to allow emigration to European countries and the US, which would obviate the whole "right of return."

So clearly its not next week, or next month. But it can happen.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 12:32 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

The reason re-education won't work, is because they hate us FIRST, and THEN look for a reason to back it up. If it was the other way around, then there might be a chance.

They hate us for breathing. I suppose if we stopped doing that, then they might like us better. Frankly I'm not willing to make that concession, not even for the sake of world peace.

m in Israel

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 12:36 pm

Barbara wrote:

This is a very accurate summary of what would have to change for there to be a chance for real peace, barring of course the coming of Moshiach. The question is, do you think so much fundamental change could happen? And in a fast enough time frame to not leave power vacuums that just feed extremism? Against the backdrop of the spread of ISIS and Iran's march towards nuclear weapons? I wish I could be that optimistic. . .

ora_43

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 12:37 pm

Re-education in the wake of a major war could do it. Like how Germany and Japan both get along with America and Britain.

I sincerely hope it won't come to that.

I guess first we should define "real peace." I doubt we'll have complete peace, but I wouldn't say any country on earth has complete peace. I think and hope that we can have peaceful times, though. Usually that happens when our enemies remember how much they hate each other (eg Hizbullah fighting ISIS).

m in Israel

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 12:42 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

You remind me of this comic that was floating around this summer:

http://billmuehlenberg.com/res.....a.jpg

But truthfully, historically and hashkafically, Bnai Yishmael did not have the same hatred towards us that Bnai Eisav did. I don't believe in theory that it is impossible to "reeducate" the Arabs to not hate us -- I just don't believe it is possible in reality, given the current situation.

m in Israel

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 12:51 pm

ora_43 wrote:

This is exactly right. I actually just read an article somewhere recently (sorry don't remember where), holding up post war Germany as a great model of "re-education" that could be replicated with the Palestinian issue. But "denazification" in Germany involved a strong power (mainly the U.S.) forcing a change in the whole public culture: ousting Nazis and Nazi collaborators from all positions of power, censoring textbooks and the like, etc., while at the same time offering tremendous positive incentives for change.

And it required a clear and unambiguous moral stand against Nazism. I don't believe such a feeling exists in the world today towards Islamic fundamentalism.

(See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification for more information about the process in Germany)

ora_43

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 12:57 pm

m in Israel wrote:

I could see it happening, again if things get bad enough on the world stage.

Basically, I could see major western powers getting sick enough of Islamic terrorist groups that they start making serious demands of the PA and UNRWA.

OTOH, I could also see that going the other way. It seems like Israel is often the concession that Europe (and to some extent, America) is willing to make to the Islamic world (like, "we disagree with you on pretty much everything, but you're right that settlements are bad.")

But that's all thinking of political breakthroughs. Maybe we should be thinking in terms of new technology - like, say, something that ends the world's dependence on oil.