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Infertility trouble does NOT equal adoption by default!!!
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imaima




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 10:55 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
this thread is NOT about comparing pains. It was about one person's sentence that I wanted people to realize made no sense.
you should rather write this post in a different thread. This thread is not about what you are posting.


May I just ask, since it's in Manners section, and not IF, that all the IF people just get some class and reduce their exclamation marks and general snark and meanness in their responses to people who generally never meant to hurt them and apologized many times?

If noone inserted those ridiculous IF comments on a different thread, the amother would not have mentioned adoption!
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 11:36 am
imaima wrote:
And what do you mean by end-all solution?


Some couples would not adopt. For whatever reason, some were mentioned in this thread. So just saying to them that they can end their IF status by adopting, is painful to them, because for them it's not a solution.

Bottom line - it's not appropriate to tell someone with IF that it's not so bad, they can always adopt.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 12:34 pm
grace413 wrote:
Everybody has their own idea of what they can handle.

My DH is a Kohain and we decided that we would just deal with it. It has not been a major issue. Personally I think that having to explain to DD that she can't marry a Kohain is much more problematic. Despite these (and other issues) I'm very happy we adopted the children and thank Hashem for sending them to us.

People who can't/don't want to cope with adopting should not do it.

Not trying to convince anybody, but if people are emotionally on the fence about raising a child who they adopted, let me assure you that in the vast majority of cases, once you bond with that baby/child she/he is your and it doesn't really matter how they came to you.


I also don't get why the kohen thing is an issue. I know a few families who have adopted and they are all open about the fact. Obviously, everyone realises that an adopted son of a kohen is not a kohen. I'm guessing a person who doesn't want to adopt for that reason has other reasons why not.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 12:59 pm
I remember a lady coming to mikve and I don't know how it happened, everyone was talking, she shared that she was TTC for years etc, that her ovulation was hopefully not missed and she was in a hurry. One older lady told her "oh you can always get a child from abroad" (adoption). I just Rolling Eyes and gave her my "place" in the waiting. Hopefully it worked bh.
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mommyla




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 1:05 pm
Raisin wrote:
I also don't get why the kohen thing is an issue. I know a few families who have adopted and they are all open about the fact. Obviously, everyone realises that an adopted son of a kohen is not a kohen. I'm guessing a person who doesn't want to adopt for that reason has other reasons why not.


I would assume that grace's DD was converted so she cannot marry a kohen, even though she is a bas kohen.
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grace413




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 2:27 pm
Raisin wrote:
I also don't get why the kohen thing is an issue. I know a few families who have adopted and they are all open about the fact. Obviously, everyone realises that an adopted son of a kohen is not a kohen. I'm guessing a person who doesn't want to adopt for that reason has other reasons why not.


The issue is that it's a frequent reminder, in public, that the child is not the bio child of the family. Remember that here in EY they duchen every day and twice on Shabbat. Of course our kids know that they were adopted and while it's not a secret we didn't make a public announcement about it when we moved here and they were small kids. You know, kids like to be like all the other kids and don't appreciate any differences being pointed out. As I said, this was not a large enough issue for us to not adopt.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 4:39 pm
mommyla wrote:
I would assume that grace's DD was converted so she cannot marry a kohen, even though she is a bas kohen.


I was not aware that bas kohanim were restricted to marrying kohanim, or even necessarily preferred to. Why would it make a difference? Any adopted child who converted would have the identical issue.

I think it is extremely sad if a couple do not adopt solely for this reason.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 4:47 pm
Raisin wrote:
I was not aware that bas kohanim were restricted to marrying kohanim, or even necessarily preferred to. Why would it make a difference? Any adopted child who converted would have the identical issue.

I think it is extremely sad if a couple do not adopt solely for this reason.


Not Mommyla, but ....

Adopted children, unless born to a Jewish mother, have to convert, usually as babies. But even though they cannot remember a life before being Jewish, and even though raised by a Jewish family, they are converts.

I think that it was suggested that a Kohen father may feel awkward that his [adopted] son is not a Kohen. That he would be called to the Torah as Israel at his bar mitzvah, that he cannot duchen. And I guess that if you're the type to notice such things, it would be obvious to everyone that the child was adopted.

Also, an [adopted] daughter wouldn't be able to marry a Kohen, even though everyone who didn't know she was adopted would consider her a bat Kohen.

I'm not touching this one with a 10 foot pole.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 5:15 pm
yes, barbara, that was already answered. I can see why this is an issue for families that want to keep the adoption secret. But do people still actually do that? To me this is the same as a white family not wanting to adopt a black or asian baby or vice versa - they want people to think the baby is their natural child.

Again, do bas kohanim generally want to marry kohanim? I would think that would greatly restrict their shidduch options. I'm a bas levi and whether my potential date was cohen, levi or yisrael was totally irrelevent to me.
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skirtznsox




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 5:24 pm
I think the point is that though she's basically been raised as bat kohen, if she met someone who was a kohen and wanted to marry him, she couldn't, despite the fact that every other aspect of how she was raised would allow that. there are also stories of the opposite, though. I know someone who was adopted and converted because they didn't know much about his parents, but he was allowed to be called up for an aaliyah by his father's name (not kohen or levi) but then, later, when investigating his adoption, found out that he was, in fact, a kohen. that also complicated issues now when he's called up, when back home with his adoptive parents.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 8:13 pm
People keep bringing up cost and the possibility of the child having issues as reason not to adopt but can't the same be said of ivf?
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amother


 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 8:18 pm
amother wrote:
People keep bringing up cost and the possibility of the child having issues as reason not to adopt but can't the same be said of ivf?


Can't compare! With IVF, it's your biological child. Yes money is a problem, but the child having issues from IVF?? Where'd you get that notion from???
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amother


 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 8:42 pm
amother wrote:
Can't compare! With IVF, it's your biological child. Yes money is a problem, but the child having issues from IVF?? Where'd you get that notion from???


Studies have been done that seem to indicate an increased risk of both autism and ADHD in kids concieved with ART.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 8:53 pm
amother wrote:
Studies have been done that seem to indicate an increased risk of both autism and ADHD in kids concieved with ART.


Stop. Just stop.

Saying this, with no proof and for no good reason, is just cruel.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 9:14 pm
amother wrote:
Studies have been done that seem to indicate an increased risk of both autism and ADHD in kids concieved with ART.


So let me rather adopt. Because I don't want to risk conceiving children who might have ADHD.

To me it seems that
1) you haven't experienced IF (at least not severe enough to need IVF)
2) you haven't done enough research. Because there's no research PROVING that.
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little_mage




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 9:17 pm
Raisin wrote:
yes, barbara, that was already answered. I can see why this is an issue for families that want to keep the adoption secret. But do people still actually do that? To me this is the same as a white family not wanting to adopt a black or asian baby or vice versa - they want people to think the baby is their natural child.

Again, do bas kohanim generally want to marry kohanim? I would think that would greatly restrict their shidduch options. I'm a bas levi and whether my potential date was cohen, levi or yisrael was totally irrelevent to me.


But there is a difference between being open about an adoption, especially within a family, and essentially announcing it to all and sundry. Assuming it isn't obvious, it should be the family's choice to inform people about an adoption.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 11:11 pm
Not trying to be cruel but there are definitely risks with ivf/art. For one, increased risk of multiples increases chances cv's of issues.
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vintagebknyc




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 11:16 pm
amother wrote:
Not trying to be cruel but there are definitely risks with ivf/art. For one, increased risk of multiples increases chances cv's of issues.


you can't just throw around "facts" without sources. studies? real articles? if you don't have that, you continue to look foolish while hiding behind amother.
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out-of-towner




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 11:27 pm
amother wrote:
Not trying to be cruel but there are definitely risks with ivf/art. For one, increased risk of multiples increases chances cv's of issues.


Right. And there are risks to taking Tylenol also. Or vaccinating (okay, I'm not trying to open up a can of worms). Or taking an x-ray, or even a simple blood test!

People Cheshbon things out based on weighing the risks/benefits. And yes, often times the benefits outweigh the risks.

Okay, rant over!
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amother


 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 11:32 pm
chani8 wrote:
I dont see how the comment "you can always adopt" is so "extremely insensitive". The first sentence there, however, is insensitive because it discounts someone's pain.

I do appreciate this thread bringing up adoption issues, though, because it's important to explain how difficult adoption can be. Here in Israel, it is free, but there is a long waiting list. There is also psych evals and proof of income requirements, and age limits.

Personally, I could not understand why couples would not want to adopt. I want people to want my foster-to-adopt babies. ETA- This thread has been helpful because of your explanations. Thank you.


Every person, every couple, has different ideas about what being a parent looks like. Feels like. When we went through our ART journey, we heard the "just adopt" spiel time and again. It was very hurtful and presumptuous. I wanted to create a baby with DH, I didn't want to be parents to children who weren't biologically ours. Both are beautiful, generous, and amazing "options", but they are different paths. Some people want children no matter how they arrive, and that's incredible. That's not what we wanted, yet it kept being fed to us by more people than I care to remember. I think many people just do not see this view, and I wanted to share it with you. (And I think what you do is exceptional, Chani, I do.)
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