Spinoff- IF, what should you say?

amother

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 4:15 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

Do NOT ask her why she is 'waiting'
Do NOT tell her "you're so smart for waiting to have kids"

Yup. The worst for me, was people thinking I did it on purpose, EVEN IF TO PRAISE.
I once went along, like "oh I have time", then I felt so bad, my mom told me next time blast her, don't just nod along. I've never taken a pill in my life, even when I had that 4 yr gap. Thankyouverymuch.

Maybe the worst phrasing was the one made to "tempt me into having babies": "don't you want a little baby in your arms"?. I HAVE to think this person meant well (or is mentally sick), or I would wish ill upon her. Btw I learned SHE was on birth control long term and couldn't envision having more, so yeah talk for yourself lady.

Quote:

Do NOT say something like "You're the only one in the family know who hasn't had kids yet, who else would I ask to be kvater besides you"

Oh that one, so sick

I shuddered when I read that. Didn't penina do that to chana? Ouch.

As for kvatter, "everyone" knows it's a segula, so people are really well-meaning when they offer the opportunity. My cousin had a close friend going theough IF and as close as they were she couldn't work up the courage to offer her friend the honor/segulah/opportunity, for fear of a reaction similar to some posters above. In the end she did and the friend was grateful, but one of the grandmothers at the bris was extremely insensitive and inquisitive. I was there and felt so awful, knowing how much thought and sensitivity had gone into the asking and still circumstances worked out painfully for the kvatter. Sometimes you have to do your best, and accept that pain is bashert, we just have to do our absolute utmost not to be the shaliach.

amother

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 5:40 pm

Married over a year at a classmates lChaim, a classmate who already has a child comes over and taps my stomache and says "am so happy for you. When are you due". Should've given a sharp retort and pushed her away. Instead I just took a step back to be out of her touch and said "I am not pregnant".

A close family member wanted to honor us with kvatter but didn't want us to feel uncomfortable to decline. They told us, "we are asking you as a first choice and we have someone lined up as second choice. Just tell us a few minutes before the bris yes or no. You do not have to give a reason if you decline. Can be nidda, pregnant already or just not in the mood. We will understand

Now, when I have had to ask someone to be kvatter for my own children I try to be sensitive about it.

amother

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 6:03 pm

1. Don't ask me about my IF issues, if I want to share I will. 90% of the time I won't so butt out and stop being a yachner, you aren't asking because you care, you're asking because you're nosy.

2. I still love kids, please don't treat me like a pariah because I don't have any of my own. I have plenty of nieces and nephews, and many many younger siblings, so I am pretty handy at babysitting, diaper changes, bottle feeds, bathing etc, I know about parenting issues and age appropriate behaviors and enjoy participating in such discussions if they are going on, don't chsnge the subject when I arrive, it is more uncomfortable and hurtful.

3. Don't tell me about segulas, doctors, treatments or that you are davening for me, especially if you bump into me in the store. It touches on the deep pit of pain and I am embarrassed by demonstrating such painful emotions in public. Would you ask someone how their bedroom life was in public? So don't do this either.

4. Don't remind me of the positive aspects, the opportunity to grow closer to Hashem, or have great vacations etc. I know this, but unless I ask you in the context of a DMC, it is none of your business.

5. Just be normal. Talk about your kids, your life, your plans just like with anyone else. If I don't want to hear, I will change the subject. Don't tell me I can't understand your issues, or that you understand mine, or make any reference to IF unless I invite it.

6. Imagine you know someone who is having treatment for cancer, and you bump into her in the street. You don't start a conversation about her latest treatment, or side effects, or ask whether her hair has fallen out yet or is she vomiting blood or has diarrhea, you just have normal, light hearted conversation about what you're doing for shabbos, or the weather, or the traffic, or the latest store to open, or a new recipe, or a popular shiur you're thinking of attending. Same rules.

I am still a person with many many interests other than my childlessness. You are a person with many overlapping interests, other than your children. Talk about them.

amother

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 6:37 pm

SIL has infertility. My brother confided in me a bit. Whenever we are together for family events / simchas I have always been careful not to make a fuss about my baby. In the beginning my SIL would come say hello and then leave right away the family get togethers, but now she stays a bit and asks to hold my baby. I think it gives her some comfort as she recently had a mis. I don't say anything to her. I let her lead the way. She chooses the topic of conversation after we exchange pleasantries.

amother

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 7:05 pm

THIS IS A BIG ONE:

When you see an old friend or acquaintance who you have not seen in a while, or when meeting someone for the first time, etc. Do NOT say:

1) Do NOT say, "So how many kids do you have now?"

2) If you see her with an older child do NOT say, "Are the younger ones in school?" or "How many others do you have?" Let her lead the way and talk about the child you see, not the children you don't see - because could be they are struggling to have more.

Both have been done to me and super awkward.

imsobored

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 12:26 am

amother wrote:

When I was asked to be kvatter I was filled with tremendous gratitude and it felt so great to know that someone was thinking and cared about me......

I also felt like that, the first 10 times I was asked:) I was seriously touched that my close family/friends thought about me! but then I was coming back for the next kids bris 1-2-3 yrs later and started feeling stupid! So now when some1 asks me I just say thanks so much for thinking about me, means a lot but that 'trick' doesn't work for me:)
Honestly thing that bothers me most is when people assume I don't go to drs and tell me I have to go, just coz your friend isn't sharing her IF life with u doesn't mean she isn't taking care of it! And if she isn't sharing she doesn't want to so just best thing is keep your advice to yourself!!

cbsp

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 12:39 am

amother wrote:

When I was asked to be kvatter I was filled with tremendous gratitude and it felt so great to know that someone was thinking and cared about me......

Same here. Except when we had to decline for whatever reason (and consulted a Rov to confirm) it was comical to be told that we should do it anyway (the relative knew our Rov said no) because who knows if this segulah is the only way were going to have children. I think I told her that doing ratzon Hashem might be a better segulah.

Volunteer

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 1:17 am

I feel absolutely fine when my friends talk about their kids with me. Actually, I like hearing about them, because I'm happy for them, and I like hearing about the good things happening in others' lives.

I never felt bad about it, except:

1. Someone is making a pointed comparison between my family and theirs. ("So-and-so just had a baby! Hmmm...She's younger than you. I hope YOU can have a baby very soon too.")
2. Someone makes me feel like the object of pity. (Telling me, "I pray for you daily, take challah for you, give tzedakah publicly in your name, etc.")
3. Someone complains bitterly about their kids when they are just behaving like normal kids. For example, someone says, "I'm so glad all my kids are away at camp! I wish they would stay there and never come back!" Or, "Parenthood is so hard. I wish I could get rid of them and have my life back. You are so lucky not to have kids." (Yes, these are actual quotes...)

Heyaaa

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 3:42 am

Volunteer wrote:

Both those women in #3 were probably going through pp or pms or an attempt at humor. A healthy mother wouldn't say that.

amother

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 4:37 am

As a general rule, don't brag or complain about something you have in front of another person who you are not close to, because you never know what they lack. IF or otherwise. IF isn't the only thing. Some people are single/divorced/widowed, have lost parents/kids/siblings, are poor/struggling/unemployed, have issues with chinuch/shalom bayis/in laws... just be careful. But I think it's ok to say anything that isn't bragging (Isn't my son cute? Look what Sara made in gan today!) or complaining (oh my gosh, having kids is so hard sometimes...).

As far as bringing up the subject. Don't. If your friend ever seems upset, just ask what's wrong. She'll tell you if she wants to talk. No discussing segulos etc., please.

I have a friend who is very happy with her lot.... to the point that she is ALWAYS talking about how great her life is, and how lucky she is... she was always talking about her amazing marriage to one of her friends, and then that friend turned out to be in the middle of a divorce....ouch.

Oh, and just because someone has one or more kids after IF, it doesn't mean you can pretend it never happened. As a post-IFer, I find complaints about having kids close together or having lots of kids to be painful, because I don't know if will have more or when. I also don't want to be lumped with the 'newlyweds' with one baby, because I'm not!!!

amother

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 8:00 am

Iymnok wrote:

We had just moved to a new community and I wanted to find friends for my kids. I asked a neighbor who had been living here for 3 or 4 years if she had kids, she said no. I felt bad and changed the subject. Was she hurt? Is there a different way too ask? Most people here have kids...

You can tell her you're looking for friends for your kids; does she know anyone who has kids that age? If she has kids, she'll say.
Btw, don't beat yourself up. Life happens. As long as it wasn't mean, ppl get over it.

Raisin

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 8:34 am

We often have strangers at our shabbos table. Its hard because almost any question could potentially be a minefield. If you ask about their parents - maybe their parents recently died or are abusive. Job- maybe they just lost one or hate their job. Etc etc. We generally ask a vague Do you have any family? Which can be answered Yes, I have 6 kids/parents and siblings or whatever. Once we asked a middle aged couple if they have kids and they answered no. So never again.

Appearances can be deceiving...once we had a young woman at our shabbos table. She looked like a typical grad student or young professional. Nope. Turned out she had a husband and a bunch of older teenage children back in Israel and was a doctor working for many years already.

amother

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 10:44 am

Raisin wrote:

It is really scary to think how much hurt we can cause without meaning to.
So we ought to reduce chitchat to the weather, etc?
I believe that these kinds of blunders you mentioned are more embarrassing for the asker than the one being asked. They're unfortunately used to it. As long as it wasn't a mean or stupid or hurtful comment, I'm assuming most people with IF move on after such a question. It's the stupid comments or nosy questions that get them down.

I hope I'm right because though I really try to be careful with such type of questions, I do slip up sometimes. I wouldnt be able to forgive myself if I knew that it hurts so deeply.

Chayalle

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 11:27 am

amother wrote:

Honestly, I feel bad for someone who asks me a question and I wish I could just make them swallow it and not answer. Like, meeting a classmate at the doctor's office with several little ones in tow, and she asks me how old my baby is and I say 6 1/2......

What gets me is the people who offer unsolicited advice...or who just know everything...or who put their foot in deeper by insisting that they heard that I had a baby, or they for sure saw me with one (it blows my mind, why anyone would do that.)

Just move on!

ETA: I got a call last summer from an organization that helps out single Moms with babies. They wanted to know if I'd like to sponsor a baby in Israel in honor of the birth of my new baby! I felt tempted to sponsor, but told the caller that I had not had a new baby...she insisted that I had!

amother

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 11:39 am

amother wrote:

You are right. We know we live in a world of children. These kind of general comments may be a reminder of the pain, but we move on.

It's just the stupid comments and nosy questions, as you said, that make me want to bang you on the head. And so are the unsolicited advice, the follow-ups on the latest segulah you told me I must try, the spreading nonsense about my situation when I never shared with you the real issue. It's endless. Point is, if you're kind, I don't mind.

Simple1

Fri, Nov 21 2014, 12:12 pm

Raisin wrote:

It's easy to ask the wrong question once in a while. But a tactful person will back off once she sees that it's a sensitive issue, as opposed to probing for further details.