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Can Israel ever have real peace?
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Will Israel Ever Have Peace
Not until Moshiach comes  
 86%  [ 87 ]
Yes, if we drop world pressure  
 1%  [ 2 ]
Yes (other)  
 5%  [ 6 ]
No (other)  
 5%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 101



marina




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 4:02 pm
Hatred is taught. Re education means stopping the teaching of lies and propaganda and antisemitic claptrap. It means creating a viable system of moderate Islamic schools that preach tolerance. It means starting with very young children, not the violent adults who are too far gone.

It is a complicated and unpopular opinion, one that would require many steps and attempts and failures. So feel free to wait until moshiach comes or whatever, instead. That's much more likely.
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m in Israel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 4:26 pm
marina wrote:
Hatred is taught. Re education means stopping the teaching of lies and propaganda and antisemitic claptrap. It means creating a viable system of moderate Islamic schools that preach tolerance. It means starting with very young children, not the violent adults who are too far gone.

It is a complicated and unpopular opinion, one that would require many steps and attempts and failures. So feel free to wait until moshiach comes or whatever, instead. That's much more likely.


And even if you succeeded in creating such a school system, if the kids are still going home to parents who have not changed their mindset, the school is only going to get you so far. . .

I am afraid I agree with your conclusion regarding the likelihoods. . .
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 5:32 pm
marina wrote:
Hatred is taught. Re education means stopping the teaching of lies and propaganda and antisemitic claptrap. It means creating a viable system of moderate Islamic schools that preach tolerance. It means starting with very young children, not the violent adults who are too far gone.

It is a complicated and unpopular opinion, one that would require many steps and attempts and failures. So feel free to wait until moshiach comes or whatever, instead. That's much more likely.

How is it an unpopular opinion? Virtually everyone agrees that education to hate is a huge part of the problem.

The problem is in implementation. Unfortunately, our power to decide the education of children in other communities is limited. As we all know.

I'm not saying that people are giving up, or that we should give up - just explaining why it's not the go-to prediction despite the fact that so many people agree it's a central issue.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 5:36 pm
There's also a vicious cycle thing going on. We can't stop the conflict (whether between America and the Taliban, Israel and Palestinian terrorist groups, ISIS and everyone, etc) without educating to non-violence, but education to non-violence is far, far less likely to succeed when the conflict is ongoing.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 5:54 pm
UNWRA is pro-terror. What can be done about that?
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 6:10 pm
Could you live in peace with a neighbor whose raison d'etre is to annihilate you?
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 6:51 pm
As I see it, one of the biggest obstacles is popular opinion. People are ok with their taxes going to pay for defense and military actions. Paying to implement a moderate Islamic education system? Not so much.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 6:55 pm
marina wrote:
As I see it, one of the biggest obstacles is popular opinion. People are ok with their taxes going to pay for defense and military actions. Paying to implement a moderate Islamic education system? Not so much.


Maybe because they recognize reality. Recognizing reality should not be considered admission of defeat.
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 7:11 pm
chani8 wrote:
Btw, not all Arabs are bad. Not all Muslims are fanatics that want us dead. Just saying.


And not all Arabs are Muslim, not all Muslims are Arabs, and plenty of Arabs are Jews. Why do people think that the words Arab and Muslim are interchangeable?

I'm another vote for re-education.
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spring13




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 7:12 pm
This thread is interesting to me because I keep seeing moral equivalency rhetoric about how the Jews in Israel want all Palestinians dead, the same way they say straight out that they want all of us gone. Assuming that it were possible, wouldn't most Israelis be happy to have everyone living and letting live? I know Israeli/Jewish society isn't free from racism and so on, but I want to think that we're above the kind of blind murderous hatred we get from so much of the Arab world.
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chocolate fondue




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 20 2014, 7:16 pm
Yeah, if the nuclear power plant in Iran expodes and flattens Iran, Iraq, Jordan and Syria, a tsunami floods Gaza and, uh, all the Arabs in the West Bank die of Ebola, then there's a chance of peace in Israel. Maybe.

When the Jordanian cabinet holds a minute of silence for the 'poor' terrorists killed in the Har Nof attack, I don't think the Arabs are going to be 're-educated' any time soon.

The more people are segregated and separated, the more they can be demonized. So if the kids in Gaza never even get to see and interact with Jews (as is the case after the disengagement) it becomes harder to show them that Jews are actually people just like them. But even the Arabs in the West Bank don't seem to get it. So I've given up.

End of incoherent ramble.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 21 2014, 9:15 am
marina wrote:
As I see it, one of the biggest obstacles is popular opinion. People are ok with their taxes going to pay for defense and military actions. Paying to implement a moderate Islamic education system? Not so much.


Wasn't there something like half a billion pledged in aid to Gaza post war?
Were there any strings or directives attached? Anyone overseeing the building of new schools, making sure that they would never be used as a haven for terrorists, vetting all the textbooks?
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 21 2014, 1:27 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
Maybe because they recognize reality. Recognizing reality should not be considered admission of defeat.


I never said re-education would be straightforward or easy. It might not work. But it's the best option we have. Waiting around for moshiach? Not so much.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 21 2014, 1:30 pm
Marina, we don't have control over their schools, camps, or tv programs. They control their own affairs.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 21 2014, 1:46 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Wasn't there something like half a billion pledged in aid to Gaza post war?
Were there any strings or directives attached? Anyone overseeing the building of new schools, making sure that they would never be used as a haven for terrorists, vetting all the textbooks?


Right, this needs to be changed too.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 21 2014, 1:49 pm
sequoia wrote:
Marina, we don't have control over their schools, camps, or tv programs. They control their own affairs.


This is something that needs to change. We need to either to this under the radar or directly, I have no idea, but it needs to change. That, of course, will be the hardest aspect of this.

I always think about bigotry in America. 100 years ago, everyone was racist. With very few exceptions, American whites thought blacks were inferior, not fully human. Then came Brown v Board of education and sure, the laws helped. But what helped the most were the schools. They started to teache tolerance and diversity from the very earliest grades and now- racism is completely not tolerated. The change over a 100 years is - if you think about it- unfathomable.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 21 2014, 1:58 pm
marina wrote:
This is something that needs to change. We need to either to this under the radar or directly, I have no idea, but it needs to change. That, of course, will be the hardest aspect of this.

I always think about bigotry in America. 100 years ago, everyone was racist. With very few exceptions, American whites thought blacks were inferior, not fully human. Then came Brown v Board of education and sure, the laws helped. But what helped the most were the schools. They started to teache tolerance and diversity from the very earliest grades and now- racism is completely not tolerated. The change over a 100 years is - if you think about it- unfathomable.


Right, this was an internal matter.

Israel does not have ANY control over the schools, camps, and other institutions of the Palestinian Authority.

To say nothing of Gaza.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 21 2014, 2:05 pm
sequoia wrote:
Right, this was an internal matter.

Israel does not have ANY control over the schools, camps, and other institutions of the Palestinian Authority.

To say nothing of Gaza.


Well, we can try to change this or we can wait for moshiach. While more people die.

And this idea is not just for Hamas. It's really the only way to stop ISIS as well. It will take a century or more, but it's the only real option.

Take the option of killing everyone. Say we just go in and bomb all those countries- an abhorrent idea, but one that many espouse. You think that will solve this problem? You don't think the same terrorism will sprout in 20 years? Even a more violent form, if that were possible.

Re-education is the only possible thing to try.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 21 2014, 2:36 pm
marina wrote:
Well, we can try to change this or we can wait for moshiach. While more people die.

And this idea is not just for Hamas. It's really the only way to stop ISIS as well. It will take a century or more, but it's the only real option.

Take the option of killing everyone. Say we just go in and bomb all those countries- an abhorrent idea, but one that many espouse. You think that will solve this problem? You don't think the same terrorism will sprout in 20 years? Even a more violent form, if that were possible.

Re-education is the only possible thing to try.


The real question that Israel has to grapple with is, what do we have to do for self-defense? And what is acceptable and works as deterrents? Stuff like that. They don't have the luxury and have to do what they have to do.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 24 2014, 10:17 pm
There are 10-20 million Ahmadiyya Muslims world-wide. These people are peaceful and stand up against violence.

Why don't all western countries support these types of groups and help them flourish? Because war is more popular that's why.




Here's some more links

http://www.loveforallhatredfornone.org/

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