Cheating/Stealing/Not Honest????????????

amother

Sun, Nov 23 2014, 6:56 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

Right, that's what I was thinking. I'm not sure why amother didn't just say this instead of simply repeating that it's fraud and everyone who doesn't realize this has a problem.

At this point, if you can't realize it is fraud even after being given the definition of fraud then it is problematic especially if you continue to give advice and CY someone follows your advice. You can't intentionally misrepresent something in business for gain.

I don't think everyone who first didn't realize it is fraud had a problem, I am concerned at this point about the ethics and/or the ability to process of those that can't understand it is fraud. Fraud is so rampant in the frum world because people will justify it by saying that they need the money. You can't fudge expenses.

hillbubby

Sun, Nov 23 2014, 1:09 pm

Aside from a few snarky comments, this is a great thread. It's interesting that there is so much interest in a relatively minor issue, I.e. whether to claim $14 from your employer. I think the reason is that while most people would agree that asking for the money would technically be dishonest, there is room for disagreement as to how honest one needs to be. We can call it fraud or dishonesty or whatever we want but it doesn't seem that bad to most people since OP incurred $20 in expenses for the benefit of her employer and her employer is willing to reimburse certain parking expenses.

On the one hand, we know that halacha permits lies under certain circumstances. A wealthy person may lie about his wealth in order to avoid arousing jealousy. A husband , who knows his wife is a procrastinator, can lie and tell his wife that Shabbos starts an hour earlier. One is also permitted to lie for the sake of financial gain where no stealing is involved. Thus, if you are concerned that your mover may break something, you can label the box "fragile" or "glass" even if it is a lie.

On the other hand, we know that halacha prohibits lying for the purpose of cheating someone and causing another's financial loss.

So is OP's scenario considered lying for financial gain where there is no stealing involved or is it considered cheating and causing financial loss? The answer is not so crystal clear and I don't think we should judge each other negatively for arriving at either conclusion.

amother

Sun, Nov 23 2014, 1:20 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Well if you never actually gave a reason for it being fraudulent, why would anyone feel obligated to believe you? I'm not your child LOL

I gave you the definition of fraud which is intentionally misrepresenting something for benefit. Here OP is proposing to intentional misrepresent that she parked in a garage for financial benefit.

amother

Sun, Nov 23 2014, 1:28 pm

peppermintvibe wrote:

Your reasoning is twisted. OP is proposing that she bill parking in a garage when she didn't. She is proposing getting unjustly enriched.

The reason we have so much fraud in this community is because people twist halacha to allow them to commit fraud. Fraud is not justified because someone needs money. The prisons are full of frum Jews who justify their crimes like you just did.

It is crystal clear that intentional misrepresentation for benefit is fraud.

hillbubby

Sun, Nov 23 2014, 5:07 pm

How NOT to Conduct a Civilized Intellectual Argument:

1) ignore the totality of your opponent's comments and make unsupported conclusions

2) use legal terminology you are not familiar with "She is proposing getting unjustly enriched,".

3) make personal attacks " The prisons are full of frum Jews who justify their crimes like you just did."

4) hide behind the cloak of anonymity

causemommysaid

Sun, Nov 23 2014, 5:42 pm

peppermintvibe wrote:

can I add #5?

stop exaggerating to the point where no one takes amother seriously anymore

amother

Sun, Nov 23 2014, 6:19 pm

peppermintvibe wrote:

1. I read and addressed my opponents comments although I didn't agree with them.
2. Since I passed the bar and you haven't, I would say that I am using the terminology correctly and you aren't.
3. Stating that the prisons are full of frum people who justify their crimes is not a personal attack. Which person did I attack?

amother

Sun, Nov 23 2014, 9:38 pm

causemommysaid wrote:

ya right you passed the bar. Very Happy

you can claim anything to enhance your position while the rest of us can't.

come out from amother and I'll believe you.

I don't care if you believe me or not. I would rather protect any anonymity I do have. You can google the definition of fraud yourself rather than take amother's word.

I do wonder why the denial the proposed behavior of OP is fraud. Is the problem you don't want to admit that behavior you find acceptable is fraudulent or is there some sort of processing issue here whereby you can't see the proposed behavior has all the elements of fraud?

Perhaps the problems of fraud being so prevalent in the frum community is because the perpetrators of fraud justify it the same way some posters do with a halachic analysis.

causemommysaid

Sun, Nov 23 2014, 9:47 pm

amother wrote:

na I'm not that deep. I am arguing with you because Imamother is addictive and because I think its silly to call such a small infracture such a big word like fraud.

its obvious we shall never agree so lets just call it a day.