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Forum -> Interesting Discussions -> Inspirational
Hashgacha Pratis in Har Nof last week



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amother


 

Post Mon, Nov 24 2014, 4:32 pm
One man who was a regular at the minyan was not in shul because Tuesday mornings he takes his down syndrome son to Yeshiva. He also has a regular Chavrusa who goes with him to a different minyan Tuesday mornings.

Thirteen years ago, when this man's down syndrome son was born, the wife complained to Rebbetzen Kanievsky. Rebbetzen Kanievsky said that this child would be a Shemira for the family.

It was only last week, thirteen years later, that the family was able to see how their down syndrome son saved his father and his father's Chavrusa from the attacks.
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sourstix




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 24 2014, 4:48 pm
WOW! thanks so much for posting! thats what this site should be. only posting positive. thanks again.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Nov 24 2014, 5:02 pm
The mother in this true story is Chaya Tavin.

But she never "complained". Rather, she went to Rebbetzin Kanievsky for a bracha.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Nov 24 2014, 7:47 pm
Am I alone in thinking that this kind of posting is tacky, insensitive and inappropriate? The murder victims weren't some anonymous lumps of chopped-liver from nowhere in particular that we can say with impunity "better them than me". The murder victims were acheinu bnei yisrael, torah leaders every one of them, butchered as they were immersed in mitzvot. Where was THEIR hashgacha protis? Where was THEIR shmirah? Where was THEIR "shiluchei mitzvah einan nizokin"?

When you claim hashgacha protis, there is gratitude to the KBH but there is also an element of self-congratulation. G-d did this for ME, ergo I must have done something good. Ergo, I'm better than the people for whom He didn't do this favor. In this instance, untrue, unkind and just.plain. wrong. Private gratitude, sure, of course. Always, in your heart of hearts. Let it become a family legend. But in this case, not something for public consumption, and most certainly not something to spread around at this point in time.
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Notsobusy




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 24 2014, 7:57 pm
amother wrote:
Am I alone in thinking that this kind of posting is tacky, insensitive and inappropriate? The murder victims weren't some anonymous lumps of chopped-liver from nowhere in particular that we can say with impunity "better them than me". The murder victims were acheinu bnei yisrael, torah leaders every one of them, butchered as they were immersed in mitzvot. Where was THEIR hashgacha protis? Where was THEIR shmirah? Where was THEIR "shiluchei mitzvah einan nizokin"?

When you claim hashgacha protis, there is gratitude to the KBH but there is also an element of self-congratulation. G-d did this for ME, ergo I must have done something good. Ergo, I'm better than the people for whom He didn't do this favor. In this instance, untrue, unkind and just.plain. wrong. Private gratitude, sure, of course. Always, in your heart of hearts. Let it become a family legend. But in this case, not something for public consumption, and most certainly not something to spread around at this point in time.


I was actually going to start a spinoff thread saying basically the same thing. I felt uncomfortable putting it in this thread, but it was really bothering me.
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Odelyah




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 24 2014, 11:46 pm
I think this is why when Chaya was asked if was OK to publish her email, her response was "absolutely yes as long as it is unchanged".

I think that well-intentioned attempts such as by the OP to summarize what she wrote can cause her words to be taken out of context or misunderstood. You can read her words here on this earlier thread http://imamother.com/forum/vie.....r+nof and I think it's clear that her point is not "lucky me, benificiary of hashgacha pratis", but rather, and I quote: "To us, it is clear that the world is run with exactitude ". She mentioned both the people who were spared, and the hashgacha of those who were murdered too. Rabbi Levine z"l hadn't even davened there and went suddenly at that time to speak with the Rav. Rabbi Kupinsky z"l didn't daven there most of the time. Her point (one of them) is that we believe that events that seem random, for the good or the bad, are in fact part of an exact plan [however unfathomable that plan may be]. But please read exactly what she wrote, as she requested, rather than my or anyone else's attempt at paraphrasing.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 12:38 am
I don't hear it that way at all.

I didn't hear any "better" attitude.

I only heard awe at the mechanisms HKBH uses to do what he wants.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 7:02 am
I like nice stories, but this is too soon after the event, please! these are real victims and they didn't happen 200 years ago or in a chassidishe vertel.
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June




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 7:34 am
the entire event from beginning to end was hashgacha pratis. for reasons unknown to us, Hashem put each person exactly in the spot they were supposed to be in when the attack started. to pick out one person who was saved and call it "hashgacha pratis" is to deny Hashem's involvement in the ones who were not.
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Notsobusy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 8:39 am
Odelyah wrote:
I think this is why when Chaya was asked if was OK to publish her email, her response was "absolutely yes as long as it is unchanged".

I think that well-intentioned attempts such as by the OP to summarize what she wrote can cause her words to be taken out of context or misunderstood. You can read her words here on this earlier thread http://imamother.com/forum/vie.....r+nof and I think it's clear that her point is not "lucky me, benificiary of hashgacha pratis", but rather, and I quote: "To us, it is clear that the world is run with exactitude ". She mentioned both the people who were spared, and the hashgacha of those who were murdered too. Rabbi Levine z"l hadn't even davened there and went suddenly at that time to speak with the Rav. Rabbi Kupinsky z"l didn't daven there most of the time. Her point (one of them) is that we believe that events that seem random, for the good or the bad, are in fact part of an exact plan [however unfathomable that plan may be]. But please read exactly what she wrote, as she requested, rather than my or anyone else's attempt at paraphrasing.



Thank you for sharing that link. That is the right way to look at this tragedy, it really is all in Hashems's hands. She sounds like an incredible person. I'm crying again from reading this.
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notshanarishona




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 9:37 am
I think seeing the "good" in it , helps to deal with it emotionally.
Not like this was a good thing obviously but seeing that there was some level of hashgacha pratis even if we don't understand it fully.

For example, was saying the upstairs minyan is much bigger than the neitz minyan.
For some unknown reason, the terrorists went into the smaller minyan.
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luppamom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 25 2014, 10:48 am
notshanarishona wrote:
I think seeing the "good" in it , helps to deal with it emotionally.
Not like this was a good thing obviously but seeing that there was some level of hashgacha pratis even if we don't understand it fully.

For example, was saying the upstairs minyan is much bigger than the neitz minyan.
For some unknown reason, the terrorists went into the smaller minyan.


Me too. What happened was horrific. From reading that poem and other things, I saw what amazing people the kedoshim hy"d were, in their lives and in their deaths. I don't think that talking about people who were saved takes away from that. I think Hashem wants us to pay attention to every single neis and in the spirit of Kislev do "pirsumei nissa" and publicize all of the nisim amidst the tragedy.
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