Judaism Must Embrace the Convert

Bruria

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 3:04 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Either the Gemara is a source, or it isn't.

eta - meaning, it seems strange to me to say that something written in the Gemara can't be true because of something else written in the Gemara. (Even if the Gemara did work like that - which it doesn't. It's all about the contradicting opinions.)

The Gemara is THE source. And the fact that two converts, Shemaya and Avtalion were Nassi and Av Bet Din is a fact. They were in the highest positions in the Sanhedrin and they were gerim. This is indisputable.

ora_43

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 3:14 pm

Bruria wrote:

And the Gemara also speaks about certain positions in government being only for people born in the Jewish nation. That is also a fact.

And if you're going to choose just one of those two facts, it seems odd to choose the one you're learning out from history over the one that was explicitly stated.

Me, I don't see any reason to choose just one. Both can be facts just fine.

(I should note, in case anyone here is a convert who wanted to head the IDF some day and is now worried about the potential halachic issue, that I'm not sure if this applies to converts who are of zera Yisrael ie of Jewish descent but not born halachically Jewish.)(If anyone is a convert of non-Jewish descent and wants to be in Knesset someday, good news - that's allowed.)

ora_43

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 3:28 pm

sequoia wrote:

Shin Bet? Probably not...

AYLOR

.

(... if you ask him AFTER you've undergone your Shin Bet course on interrogation, the odds of getting the answer you want will improve rather dramatically... )

Bruria

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 3:31 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Then give me sources( meaning massechet, page). Also, you cannot disagree that the Nassi of the Sanhedrin was a convert. I'm sorry if it bothers you, that's just how it was.

ora_43

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 3:41 pm

Bruria wrote:

Then give me sources( meaning massechet, page). Also, you cannot disagree that the Nassi of the Sanhedrin was a convert. I'm sorry if it bothers you, that's just how it was.

When did I disagree with that? Confused

I explicitly said I agree with that being true, why on earth would you assume it bothers me?

Masechet Kiddushin, page 76b.

Bruria

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 3:53 pm

ora_43 wrote:

When did I disagree with that? Confused

I explicitly said I agree with that being true, why on earth would you assume it bothers me?

Masechet Kiddushin, page 76b.

Sorry if I misunderstood you Confused

I see what it says, but it still contradicts the Mishna, and usually when that happens we go according to the Mishna Very Happy

ora_43

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 4:01 pm

Bruria wrote:

Sorry if I misunderstood you Confused

I see what it says, but it still contradicts the Mishna, and usually when that happens we go according to the Mishna Very Happy

Look, I'm not here to preach about the details of this (not particularly relevant) halacha. I just got started talking about it to explain that it's not what a previous poster claimed it was. It is no skin off my back if anyone believes it doesn't exist, or that it does, or that it did but doesn't anymore. As long as we can all agree that a ger running a social justice center shouldn't be a cause for concern, we're good.

Bruria

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 4:04 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Look, I'm not here to preach about the details of this (not particularly relevant) halacha. I just got started talking about it to explain that it's not what a previous poster claimed it was.

Hey, no worries, we just had a little chavrusa time, studying is always enjoyable Wink

Bruria

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 4:19 pm

By the way, I found a parallel to the Bavli in Yerushalmi Kiddushin Chapter 4 Halacha 5.
There they are much clearer about the real parameters of this rule even if they don't apply nowadays.

Frumdoc

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 6:14 pm

There is a very well known rabbi, frum/yeshivish, who speaks on the hotel circuit, has a regular column in a frum magazine and is open about his geirus. There may be many more, but I think it is well established that amongst orthodoxy, being a ger is not a barrier to being a rav, community or otherwise.

There may be some more extreme sects where it is unacceptable, maybe due to the necessity of being descended from whichever leader they deem is their direct connection to the Almighty.

Imogen

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 6:26 pm

I feel so deeply upset reading this thread, the line of David and Moshiach hails from Ruth!

I went to a barmitzvah last week where an elderly survivor told of how a young gentile woman, saved his life and converted, all within a couple of years after the Shoah. Imagine the ahavat yisrael, in the aftermath of Nazi Europe to affiliate yourself with Judaism, to pronounce yourself to join the ranks of Klal Yisrael. Today conversion is rendered so hard a process to undertake that we have to treat those learned, thick skinned and determind enough with respect and love. Thank you Bruria for your posts, you live up to your screen name. P

sequoia

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 6:32 pm

Now that I have calmed a little, I would like to say to the original amother: what your dh had to endure was abusive and unnecessary. No, conversion does not have to be like this, and yes, people who had a more normal process are just as sincere.

Bruria

Tue, Nov 25 2014, 8:25 pm

sabich wrote:

Thank you! embarrassed

Ruchel

Wed, Nov 26 2014, 10:33 am

Frumdoc wrote:

Several, actually.
Some have kids married into big families, too.

amother

Wed, Nov 26 2014, 10:44 am

I definitely know rabbanim who are converts. Maybe the same one.

Just to say, as the child of a giyoret, I have never experienced any negativity towards me whatsoever. Some of my siblings married into families with lots of yichus, some with less.

I have huge respect towards anyone who converts. Its not easy.

amother

Wed, Nov 26 2014, 10:46 am

ok, I didn't read the whole thread as it began to annoy me. I really agree with the article posted in the NY Times. I'm a geyores, and yes my giur was questioned (although it was a orthodox giur with a respected beis din) but it didn't go over well with some others (politics). So I had to have a giur l'chumra. I do feel there is constant scrutiny and therefore I do not tell anyone, except closest friends, my background. Some people are very accepting others not, that's just the way it is unfortunately, and it doesn't matter which group they belong to. Chassidish, MO, Litvish. I didn't get a position as a morah once, because of it, and was flat out told that this is the reason!!!!! Needless to say I was very upset. I can already see the problems coming when my children enter shidduchim. I know the system and I know that many will not look at it favorably Mad

amother

Fri, Nov 28 2014, 3:12 am

I'm the OP who posted the article. The reason why I'm amother is because I'm friends with Rav Shmuly (not bf's, mind you, but we know each other) and because I share a lot of his articles on FB..... because I agree with them! I think he's brilliant, and am so proud of him for putting himself out there in this way.

I only posted this article as food for thought, and because of a lot of born Jews like to tell us (gerim) how and what conversion is like.. without ever having gone through it.

The reason why I haven't responded is because I was working on Thanksgiving and have family in town.

amother

Fri, Nov 28 2014, 5:10 am

amother wrote:

My inlaws loved the fact my mother was a geyores. ANd ive got lots of siblings who all married into wonderful families. Perhaps there were people who rejected us - but I would never want to marry into a family who would reject on this basis anyway.