Help! I feel like I'm getting this all wrong (see OT at end)

amother

Mon, Dec 22 2014, 1:14 am

Amother to protect my child's identity as well as my own dignity, though some people will probably figure me out, oh well - I post around here pretty often and you'd think I have at least some of what it takes to raise my children. Maybe I'm just feeling especially insecure today. Or maybe it's just one of those times when a new phase hits and you're not ready for it yet... There are a bunch of things going on. Main point of this post is about my very sensitive, intelligent 4-year-old. There is also a 2-year-old involved. I have some ADHD myself which makes it hard to figure out how to give them the structure and consistency they need... I try and to myself it feels like I'm doing well but then sometimes I look around and realize we're still very far from ideal Sad

Here's some of what's going on:

(by the way this child is generally very "good" and a little too much so, so I don't want to pressure her to be perfect. But I do want to raise her well. She is typically well-mannered, kind, and cooperative, especially with others)

1. She tends to try to negotiate about everything without even realizing she's doing it. She doesn't mean to be chutzpadik or to not listen, it just happens naturally - like I'll tell her to do something and she'll say "OK, but first I'm doing..." So a little while ago I realized this was happening way too much and decided to start a zero-tolerance response. I want her to be in the habit of listening before I start with any negotiation even when it is appropriate or phrased appropriately. However I am feeling like a monster and I feel like this is destroying the open, sensitive, communicative, mutually respectful relationship we used to have. She feels like I'm not listening to her or considering her feelings because I keep insisting that she listen first and talk later. I used to be more flexible but it was getting to be that EVERY time she had some "but." How do I restore a happy medium here while still establishing parental authority?

2. On a related but more overt note, when this kind of thing escalates into a real conflict of interest (usually me putting my foot down by sternly saying "No buts, do what Mommy said first" is enough) she says things like "I don't have to listen to you." "Oh yes you do" sounds a little lame even to me! I don't want to overreact because clearly she's bidding for attention, but can I ignore something like that? That doesn't seem quite right either?

For actual actions, I do know about consequences and positive reinforcements and all that, but until now I rarely have had to use any negative consequences or punishments, mostly because the kid is generally cooperative and a warning is enough but as a result she takes it very hard when she does get punished because she isn't used to it. But I wouldn't want her to be used to negative discipline either! I usually go with Radcliffe's system of give a direction, if you want to enforce it give a warning, and then mete out the consequence. But something like "I don't have to listen" doesn't fit that model - there is no chance for warning, the kid already got her jibe in.

3. Other issue that makes it harder to unspoil her: My 2-year-old is TOTALLY spoiled. She was just born with a more strong-willed personality and for quite some time she got most of what she wanted because she was "just a baby" (I do believe in giving babies everything they need, nurse on demand, hold as much as possible, etc) and nobody could stand her crying, especially with a sensitive older kid around who likes quiet.
So now she is bigger and more verbal and more independent but still really strong-willed and spoiled, because she is a real pain when upset. This leads to two issues with the older DD:
a) I'm worried she feels like I'm favoring the other DD because she gets away with much more. I try to compensate by being nicer to older DD as well, but I really would prefer for neither of them to be spoiled, and older DD still ends up getting much less/much higher expectations.
b) As I said, DD4 is generally very sweet. She shares with DD2 a lot. But when she doesn't want to share, it gets very frustrating because DD2 can be very dramatic. Also, sometimes DD4 starts up out of what seems like pure meanness, but is probably some sort of attempt at control. Like she'll tell DD2 she can't play with something even when she (DD4) has no interest in it and has nothing to lose by letting her. This is especially an issue with a certain toy that DD2 is OBSESSED with, really truly fixated on, but was officially given to DD4 as a gift even though DD4 has really all but lost interest in it. But since DD2 is so obsessed with it, telling her she can't have it is a really sure, easy way to provoke not just a tantrum but a world-ending devastation. Partly I want to stand up for DD4's rights to control her own property and space (I generally do, I generally enforce this even when the kids are not at odds - I'll make sure DD4 can hear me when I tell DD2 that she has to ask permission or can't touch somethng that's DD4's. I wnat her to know she has her own rights and space. ) But in this type of circumstance the level of DD2's devastation and also the level of her tantrum is just so dramatic that I end up pressuring DD4 to give in to her, which I feel is unfair and unhealthy to DD4, and then when she doesn't I get really annoyed.

So on one hand I really need to unspoil the 2-year-old - HOW??? She is SO strong-minded! Very stubborn, very vocal... very unlike docile cooperative first DD.... - and on the other hand meanwhile I also want the 4-year-old to not be mean. but without pressuring her to give up her space and property.

Argh! Sometimes I feel like raising two people together is too complicated for me! So many dynamics!

4. Part of the reason I'm feeling so incompetent davka today is because I had a disastrous OT session. DD4 gets OT for sensory and processing issues. The OT is a little tough but seems to know what she's doing. I don't know if it's that she's too tough for my poor sensitive DD or if it's that I'm not tough enough and that's why DD acts so spoiled. Generally I wait outside during the session, but every time the OT calls me in to TRY to brief me on what's going on and how to help at home, DD starts hanging on me. OT does not allow this. It invariably disintegrates into a lousy discipline slide where one thing leads to the next and it only gets worse. Starts with a warning that if she doesn't stop hanging on me and get back to task, she will lose whatever special activity. She listens and then a minute later goes back to hanging. Warning again. She doesn't listen. She gets a work instead of the fun activity. She doesn't cooperate with the work. OT speaks sternly. DD gets avoidant. She starts acting up. OT physically redirects her. She reacts strongly to anything physical. Basically whenever I enter the room it only goes downhill from there. It makes me miserable to watch. It makes DD miserable. On the other hand it seems she really does need some discipline. I feel like there is something wrong with my parenting that I can't make her cooperate with her OT sessions and that she cooperates less whenever she is near me. I feel like a wimp that I'm not tough enough to discipline her properly. I'm not even sure what properly means anymore. And at the same time as I'm pretty sure I'm doing something all wrong, I'm also not so sure and worried that maybe the OT is doing it wrong. She definitely seems to be a professional who knows what she is doing, and she is very highly regarded, and I don't have much choice because it is hard to get a DOE OT at all around here, but on the other hand I know my child and I know that she always falls apart in response to any form of physical discipline (or even attempts at comforting touch when she's having a "moment") (she has not been abused or spanked or anything, quite sure of this, and has been this way always. We learned from a very early age that we had to find other ways to get her to go where needed because she reacts very strongly to being picked up, pulled, pushed, or anything like that) and while I don't have much of an alternative suggestion being that losing her preferred activity AND sticker/prize AND mommy leaving the room weren't enough to motivate her, I would like the OT to respect that about her and not physically push her to sit down.

Anyway yeah I realize I have stuffed way too much into one post but I am desperate for some advice on so many different fronts and really don't know where to turn Sad

I just don't want to mess up my very delicate little girl... BTW she has not always been so undisciplined. Somewhere along the line I guess I got used to her listening enough that I got slack or something or maybe we just entered a new stage and whatever it is everything seems totally unraveled and I don't even know how to start. I feel like our relationship is eroding every time I go tough, but when I'm not tough I feel like I'm doing her a disservice in other ways. SIGH. And that 2-year-old is getting to be a little terror. Except most of the time she's sweet too. IT's complicated...

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Dec 22 2014, 4:13 am

Everybody does worse with their mother watching them do something hard.

When the OT is working with her, keep an eye on things in a way the child can't see. Maybe a crack in a door or window, or a mirror, or a cam, so you know nothing bad is happening.

But don't be visible.

Lots of athletes don't let their parents to meets or games, for instance. That's just human nature.

She is listening to the OT the way somebody listens to a coach or piano teacher. It's a different relationship than yours with her. She will be able to accept things from that kind of person she won't accept from you. That is because they don't mean to her what you mean.

Many a woman will tolerate stern talk from a boss because it's just business. But if her husband talked to her the same way, it would be unacceptable to her.

Other than that I am out of my depth here. I have no background in this.

I hope you feel better.

chani8

Mon, Dec 22 2014, 4:48 am

The OT doesn't allow your DD to hang on you?? That's messed up.

Your DD4 is your right hand man so treat her with respect due her. Stop demanding and instead start asking for favors, which means, on one hand, that she really can say no because it's a favor for you, but it also means that you'll appreciate her help more because she decided to do it, not because you forced her. At first, she may try out saying no, but if you respect that, then she'll respect you, and she'll then want to please you more. Or, worst case, you'll end up doing more, but you'll at least have a relationship in tact rather than her hating you for manipulating/controlling her.

DD2 can tantrum all she wants. She'll get over it. Everyone is so afraid of her tantrums that she's running the show and ruining everyone's life. For your family's sake, when she tantrums, put her in her crib and let her CIO.

FranticFrummie

Mon, Dec 22 2014, 4:55 am

All I can say, is to read "Parenting with Love and Logic". It's by far the most helpful book I've ever read on parenting.

My DD is 11 now, and the "Parenting Your Teen with Love and Logic" book is my absolute favorite.

It is HARD to do at first, and you have to be firm and consistent, but I promise you your kids will thrive. They'll feel your love for them, and at the same time they'll feel secure in knowing where all the boundaries are. Kids need to know that there is a grownup in charge, because the world can be a scary place. Too much freedom is terrifying!

the world's best mom

Mon, Dec 22 2014, 8:48 am

It sounds like you are describing my kids' OT. If so, rest assured that she has a reputation for being too tough and rigid. However, she is an expert in what she does and she really makes a difference. Most mothers feel her expertise is worth putting up with the rigidity, but certain kids can't handle her and switch to someone else. Personally, I liked using her for EI, but once they were school age, I requested that my kids see a different OT at least one session a week. The problem is that in our gym there is currently no other OT, so now my kids only use her. They do complain sometimes, but there is no other option.

amother

Mon, Dec 22 2014, 10:03 am

It's a little disturbing to me but there is no way to look in on the OT because of the way the place is set up. Basically there is a therapist shortage in my area so apparently this center out of kindness found a way to wedge one more in, but because space is so tight it's right next to other active areas and would be super distracting if there were windows or anything besides that they weren't built into the room in the first place.

Chani8 really, you think it's appropriate for a kid to hang on parent during an ot session? That never even occurred to mel! I though the OT was right just disagree that it's worth wrecking the session.

I am not used to letting kids of any age CIO. I was more firm with first dd because I had more time and attention to devote, but also was luckier that she was just a generally cooperative kid with a lot of intuitive understanding of things like waiting for what you want.

Will have to check out love and logic. I'm a slow reader, though.

World's best, I'm in the same boat as you, I've been told it's impossible to get OT through the DOE throughout the city and I was lucky t get this one. Also I feel that she really does understand what my dd's issues need, which is good because they are pretty subtle but that doesn't mean they aren't significant (most ppl would be surprised that this child is in any sort of therapy. Only people who really get it, well,get it. But she does need it.)

5*Mom

Mon, Dec 22 2014, 10:40 am

chani8 wrote:

DD2 can tantrum all she wants. She'll get over it. Everyone is so afraid of her tantrums that she's running the show and ruining everyone's life. For your family's sake, when she tantrums, put her in her crib and let her CIO.

Yup, you need to stop being afraid of your 2-yr-old's tantrums. At that age tantruming is really the only way they have of expressing upset and frustration with a situation that they have no control over. I don't think you should put her in a crib to cio alone. Tantrums are not *bad behavior*. Certainly not at 2. When my littles tantrum I stay nearby for comfort because often a tantrum can be overwhelmingly frightening to the child himself. You don't have to fix the situation if there's nothing wrong with it. And there is nothing wrong, and quite a bit right, with giving your DD4 autonomy over her own possessions. It is okay for her to say no and it is okay for your little one to have a tantrum about it.

amother

Mon, Dec 22 2014, 11:58 am

I totally agree and do give her autonomy over her stuff most of the time. What bugs me is when she does it JUST to make the other one cry. How can I teach her not to be mean like that?

5*Mom

Mon, Dec 22 2014, 12:06 pm

amother wrote:

I totally agree and do give her autonomy over her stuff most of the time. What bugs me is when she does it JUST to make the other one cry. How can I teach her not to be mean like that?

She's 4. 4 is still super little. She seems big because she is your oldest, but she is really, really not big. I would guess she is doing this so that she can feel some sense of control. I would let it go at this age. Actually, I might even validate her: That's right, that toy is yours and you decide who gets to use it. Then move on to comfort the little one.

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Dec 22 2014, 10:23 pm

"It's a little disturbing to me but there is no way to look in on the OT because of the way the place is set up. "

Tell them to have a window set into the door. Or a new door put in with a window in it.

amother

Mon, Dec 22 2014, 10:54 pm

It's not a construction problem; it's that the room is right up against two busy distracting areas and it would be impossible for the kids to focus on their therapy if there were a window there.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Dec 23 2014, 4:06 am

OP, Love and Logic is a really easy read. It's written in a friendly and interesting way, with real life examples to show how it works. Dry academic stuff puts me to sleep, but I really enjoy the writing style of these books.

imaima

Tue, Dec 23 2014, 5:40 am

Ok I think I know who you are.
Hugs!
I haven't read everything, but I will comment on what jumped out to me.

I also have an easy-going DC1 and a strong-willed DC2. I try my best not to force dc1 too much because I know if I beg forever, he will agree. I want him to assert himself and have a feeling that if he says no, it means no, and he will still be accepted and loved by me.
When your dd starts negotiating, why don't you mirror her responses to her and ask in a nice way, or even explain why you want things your way. You can still say in the end that mommy knows better what is good for her, but you will not insult her with baseless blanket statements and no explanations.

My dc2 is a child for whom all these time-outs and 1-2-3 counts are invented. dc2 needs to be put in place, and 2 years old is not too early for this.

I should also say that dc1 has always been very nice and cooperative with therapists who were kind and sweet, and would be intimidated by too pushy and rigid educators.

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Dec 23 2014, 10:06 am

amother wrote:

It's not a construction problem; it's that the room is right up against two busy distracting areas and it would be impossible for the kids to focus on their therapy if there were a window there.

I meant a very small window in the door, at an adult eye level. This would not distract the children. A window less than one square foot. I have seen doors like this. A carpenter could cut such a window.

lizard8

Tue, Dec 23 2014, 10:33 am

If DD does not perform when you are around, and gets distracted when you do come in, then sit out the whole session. The last 5-10 minutes, you can come in, put your daughter on your lap and the OT cn go through with you what they did that session. She can show you technique then, but if your daughter doesn't want to be a prop, you can be one instead.
My dd gets therapy in school. At first I wanted to be involved in the sessions, but she didn't perform well with me around. I speak to the OT regularly, and practice some skills at home.

amother

Tue, Dec 23 2014, 10:39 am

Just commenting on the OT part, as I'm an OT myself. I am not impressed with her insistence on disciplining your child in a way that is clearly not working for her and there is absolutely no reason that you have to be in the room while therapy is taking place. In cases like yours, I have the parent listen from the other side of the door, which is kept open a crack if needed. Then I stop the session a few minutes early to brief the parent and create a plan for home activities. Can you ask the OT to do something similar?
If you feel that in general she does not have a good relationship with your dd, the therapy will lose a lot of efficacy and I would recommend finding another therapist. If you think that she's fine aside from this issue when you're in the room, ok. I always seek to empower parents and encourage them to following their gut and not trust "the professional" if things go against their instincts.

amother

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 3:19 am

imaima, do you mean you know which imamother I am or IRL? Can you find a way to let me know?! Unsurprised if you just recognize my posting style from imamother but if I gave enough details for IRL that's a little surprising and maybe I should edit. I mean, aren't there plenty of people with 4 year olds who get OT and 2 year old little siblings??

I'm just not sure that gentle discussions are going to work when she is negotiating over every single little thing. First of all she needs to learn to stop doing this (IMHO) and secondly it's impractical and super frustrating. She can go on forever.

DD responds great to the positive, friendly, and gentle. But there is only one OT available, it's this or nothing or pay out of pocket which we can't afford at all.

Dolly I can see how that kind of window would make it a little more comfortable for me as a paranoid parent. I still don't think it will really do anything for the overall situation.

lizard8, that's pretty much what we'd been doing - last 10 minutes or so I was called in. But OT feels that DD should NOT sit out that time on my lap and should continue doing productive activities. Which is nice in theory except not working. But this is something OT seems to feel very strongly about. So most of the time we basically just have too little communication, about some things we write each other notes, but really we do need to convene once in a while and I wish it didn't have to be a disaster every time. This has happened maybe 3-4 times over a 2-month span, and she just started the OT then so it was a little more getting acquainted at the beginning.

OT amother, thanks for your perspective. It's hard for me to figure out whether the relationship between the therapist and the child is good. As you can see the child is a little spoiled and sensitive, while the OT is a little tough. She does seem to enjoy the sessions, OT works hard at including activities she likes and she happens to be a kid who likes many types of activities, DD does not fight or balk at going into the therapy room at the beginning of sessions. On the other hand, she often says things like "I never want to go to [OT] again!" which at first I thought was just drama but she is still doing it even after receiving almost no response (I.e. I am not giving her drama over it.) And there's that feeling I get that OT's discipline style or even her correction style are really not what usually works for DD. But maybe that's a good thing because she will almost definitely run into tough teachers and criticism in her life so maybe it's better for her to learn to handle it in this setting. Maybe it's better she shouldn't be coddled her whole life.

There isn't another therapist to switch to that I know of so for now I will continue to wait it out but value the input I'm getting here. It does seem that she is benefiting from the therapy but also the more we get into OT the more we realize her issues - a nonprofessional might not even realize she has any issues; I once made the mistake of letting my mother know about the therapy and she now thinks I am crazy and driving my kid crazy over nothing because of course she is the most perfect child... in school a certain level of issues come up but in OT she can more specifically identify aspects we wouldn't have noticed, like she pointed out to me how DD is posturing - or was it not posturing? which is she supposed to be doing? - when she hops on one foot; here I thought yay she can hop on one foot, we reached a developmental milestone! but OT says she is doing it wrong and this is part of her whole set of stuff going on... that's pretty much what I gleaned before DD started acting up last time Rolling Eyes

amother

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 3:24 am

Oh and BTW I have started being tougher on DD2 and it seems to be going pretty well - there is a lot of crying, but usually she gets over it. I guess she's developmentally more ready than she was last time I tried because then it was literally impossible to deal with, she would go on forever. But it also depends how much she cares - I didn't try taking away that specific toy she's obsessed with (which belongs to other DD) because it didn't happen to be out today and wasn't today's object of conflict. Also I did try putting my foot down at bedtime about something and that was a mistake, I now realize in retrospect as I'm doing this I need to pick my battles. But there were a couple of times when I made her give in to DD4 or even simply wait her turn for a toy, and those she stopped crying not too long after realizing that she was not going to get her way. Very Happy

imaima

Wed, Dec 24 2014, 3:33 am

Which imamother you are, not irl.
It doesn't matter, we all have these problems with kids Smile