"hitting your knees" in 12 step programs-is this permissible

amother

Tue, Jan 20 2015, 12:11 pm

Ok, not sure where to post this but here goes-

DH is an addict in a 12 step program. It has literally saved his life and our marriage.

Part of the program advocates what's called "hitting hour knees." It means basically getting on your knees and bowing down and praying to your higher power, whoever that may be. I noticed DH doing it the other day and was kind of taken aback. It looked like a Muslim or like "va'anachnu korim" on Yom Kippur (which seems to be okay) and is just NOT what I'm used to. . .

I'm not saying anything to him because truthfully, at this point, he needs to follow his sponsor and program and I can't imagine Hashem wants him to do otherwise. Trust me, he did WAYYYYYYY worse when in the throes of his addiction.

I am not asking my LOR because a) I don't care what his answer is (I'm not saying anything regardless) so why would I ask if I potentially won't listen to the answer and b) I would only ask a Rabbi who is well versed with 12 step programs (I guess R' Twersky) but then there's a) again. . .

So, anonymously feeling you guys out seems to be the solution for me right now Smile

What you think-is this a huge issue or not?

justcallmeima

Tue, Jan 20 2015, 12:18 pm

You already made up your mind. Why ask here? You will inevitably have people who will support your position and those who will bash you. 12 step programs work. I have been to many meetings and have never heard this particular concept, but since you have decided that the benefit FAR outweighs the risk, just feel confident in that decision. Parallel meetings for yourself (e.g. AlAnon or NarcAnon or whatever) are HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!!!

amother

Tue, Jan 20 2015, 12:33 pm

I am in a 12 step program modeled exactly after Alcoholics Anonymous. "Hitting your knees" is a practice that some people use, connoting praying on your knees, which is definitely a Christian concept. It is not part of the 12 steps and not part of the core AA program and it is absolutely not compulsory. AA is a non-religious program and it does not advocate or discourage any religious practices whatsoever. If your husband is not comfortable praying on his knees, which Jews actually also do, on Yom Kippur, during Aleinu (and when the Beis Hamikdash is rebuilt, b'karov, Amen), then he can just tell his sponsor that as a religious Jew it doesn't suit him but he will pray and meditate NOT on his knees. He will not be compromising his recovery one little bit.

Good luck! And may the wonderful promises of a 12-step program come true for you and your family.

amother

Tue, Jan 20 2015, 2:59 pm

amother wrote:

My DH has absolutely no problem with it, I'm the one with the issue. He is very committed to doing whatever his sponsor tells him and not questioning. He says he did what he thought made sense for years and look where that got him. . . so right now, whether it's compulsory or not, if his sponsor tells him to do it. . . he's doing it. It sounds a bit crazy to me (the whole submit to your sponsor/program thing) but I do hear what he's saying and see in front of my eyes how changed he is (bH).

amother

Tue, Jan 20 2015, 3:37 pm

My husband is also in a 12 Step program, and he had a hard time getting sober, so his sponsor said that getting on his knees is not enough, he needs to get down on his nose LOL

. The point of praying on knees/on floor is to instill humility and submissiveness, which is a character defect of every addict, and the absence of humility leads to acting out.

I would be overjoyed that DH is listening to sponsor/program and taking everything seriously and forget about whether getting on his knees is kosher/unkosher. Asking here is asking for trouble because you will get all sorts of responses that might make you uneasy. But truth is, that while in throes of addiction, there is no Torah, no mitzvos, no Hashem, even if it may seem so. So if getting on his knees is what he needs to get sober, then this is what Hashem wants from him right now.

And anyway, focus on yourself LOL

FranticFrummie

Tue, Jan 20 2015, 3:38 pm

There is a science to muscle memory and retraining the brain. If he's performing a specific action, while keeping an intent in mind, it reinforces the desired goal.

It's basically a more intense form of CBT/EMDR, or "tapping".

Try to think of it as a "mind/body connection" and a form of physical therapy. I'm sure that your DH does not have any avodah zara in mind while he does this, so I don't see a problem with it. *I am not a rabbi*

Miri7

Tue, Jan 20 2015, 4:05 pm

I agree with the amother above who said the knees thing is about humility and submissiveness to Hashem. Your DH is davening to Hashem as a Jew, just not in the normal position. Being on one's knees is not an exclusively Christian thing - but it is a universal expression of submission, pleading with a higher power or authority. And yes, we do it on YK and have historical precedent in kneeling in the beit hamikdash. It's not like he is genuflecting or doing something that is an explicit expression of another religion. Hashem receives our prayers no matter how we are standing or sitting.

So I would not worry about it at all. Be glad that DH is doing something that's working. I think that in times like these, the normal "rules" should be very flexible.

amother

Tue, Jan 20 2015, 4:30 pm

amother wrote:

My husband is also in a 12 Step program, and he had a hard time getting sober, so his sponsor said that getting on his knees is not enough, he needs to get down on his nose LOL

I'm this amother. I wanted to add that I found the book " God Of Our Understanding" by Rabbi Shais Taub very helpful in figuring out how the 12 steps fit in with Judaism.

chani8

Tue, Feb 03 2015, 5:35 am

Nothing wrong with getting on one's knees. As you said, we do it on yom kippur. We invented it! We even fall on our faces. So don't worry, he's not doing anything wrong. He's bowing to Hashem. He's submitting to Hashem's Will. It's fine, it's good.

If a person is FFB, I imagine they'll know how to modify/edit the 12 step program for anything problematic to judaism.

animeme

Tue, Feb 03 2015, 7:06 am

The only type of floor that can be an issue is direct stone with nothing on top of it. Carpet, wood, linoleum- all good (what many do to use a paper towel or coat on y"k is not actually necessary inmost shuls.) Even if you have stone, it's likely that for this purpose there's no problem.

And yes, we did it first. There are many practices that we used to do as minhag that later were discouraged because other religions picked them up as a big deal and we didn't want to look like them. Ex.- reciting aseres hadibros in shul. And yet it's still there in the siddur for each to do if he likes on his own.

greenfire

Tue, Feb 03 2015, 12:32 pm

Code:

A final thought on the subject is the physical posture you might assume for the minute or two when you’re taking this Step. If you’re truly meeting and addressing the Creator of the universe, you might not want to be slouched in a chair or have your feet propped upon a desk. Hitting your knees might just do wonders for getting your action program off to a good start! “Bring the body and the mind will follow.”

touching your knees is just a reminder that we have to buck up

this is like saying 'mitoch lo lishma boh lishma' מתוך לא לשמא בא לשמא

from doing something for no reason - we will come to the purpose

so the only thing I can say is that it's worse avoda zora to drink & mess around than to try to reach a higher power aka Hashem

Chana Miriam S

Tue, Feb 03 2015, 12:37 pm

amother wrote:

What you think-is this a huge issue or not?

Getting on your knees is about humility. It can happen metaphorically or physically. I have never seen anyone do it like Yom Kippur or like muslims but to me that is preferable to doing it like catholics if you are doing it physically.

getting on our knees is about remembering we are not in charge, its about suppication to your higher power.

I would argue with a sponsor who told me I had to do it 'their' way but that has never happened to me at all.

You should be super proud of your hub! I know a lot of jews who would not do it physically and he is going out of his comfort zone and even found a way to make it palatable.

Chana Miriam S

Tue, Feb 03 2015, 12:40 pm

amother wrote:

God bless him. He is doing all the right things with the right attitude! Get thee to Al anon and hopefully he continues this level of compliance for his recovery!