The wheel of sleep fortune has turned again... help!

seeker

Sun, Jan 18 2015, 9:20 pm

I seem to post another sleep challenge every couple of months... then things start to work out again, at least enough that I'm not amothering in desperation, I think I've figured it out, and then it all stops working and I am re-humbled and TIRED.

I have a 4-year-old and a 2-year-old. DD4 sleeps in a toddler bed in a corner of the living room, which we keep very clean, quiet, dark, and sleepy around her bedtime. DD2 sleeps in a crib in my bedroom, but still often falls asleep on me/my bed and gets transferred while sleeping or almost asleep. Our bedtime routine that was more-or-less working most of the time lately went like this: Everyone gets ready for bed, we read two books (one chosen by each child), shema, a sticker for saying shema nicely, all this happens on DD4's bed which she then gets tucked into, I massage her for a couple of minutes, then I turn on some music, bring DD2 into my room (they're close enough that everyone hears the music), lay with her a little, give her a milk drink as needed, and often after a few minutes of that she would announce that she was ready to go to her crib and I would put her there and cover her and re-cover etc until she fell asleep. Otherwise she would just fall asleep on me and then I would put her in the crib, with no issue generally. Sometimes one child or the other takes longer to fall asleep or needs more attention, so I put the other one to sleep and then deal with the needy one.

Only for over a week now this hasn't been working! They are BOTH so restless despite obvious signs of tiredness. DD4 most nights has lain in bed pretty nicely for quite a long time and the sleep isn't coming. She's been having normal days, waking up as early as ever, not understimulated for the most part, no naps. Some nights she made issues, was hyper at bedtime, and other nights she was fine but still didn't fall asleep. DD2 has been pretty much the same but she does nap so it's a drop more understandable, but still, she seems tired, lies nicely with me, goes through all her sleepy motions, and then pops back up and gets increasingly MORE awake until about an hour or more after starting I just give up hope.

For over a week now I've spent over 2 hours almost every night putting the kids to sleep - and that's AFTER the whole bedtime routine! It makes me crabby and drains my patience and leaves me with no energy left to do my nighttime work.

Help!

Note: I do not want to use melatonin, I have health concerns about that for this type of situation.

seeker

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 1:30 am

They're eating the same things they always do.
We aim to be in bed at 7. Doesn't always work exactly. Tonight it did. Tonight was awful. The 2y/o is definitely not overtired by then because she had a nap today and yesterday (she doesn't always nap and I try to keep it early/short but you can only do so much...) so sometimes I even drag out her bedtime a little until she seems tired, but it doesn't seem to make a difference. Even if she's not tired she gets cued to rest by the bedtime routine, and then can't fall asleep. But even if I let her play around a little more I can see her getting tired and she still doesn't sleep. And if she rouses herself enough to really get out of bedtime and I let her go play because it's just so hopeless, then it takes FOREVER to get her back - she simply refuses and tantrums and definitely doesn't sleep, I've learned the hard way to just not bother. So she was up until at least 10:30 or later tonight because after over an hour with her in bed she was just bopping around so much and lost all interest in sleep and I was fed up so I let her play for a while and ignored her and that's how long it took until she was willing to try again, even though she was yawning and rubbing her eyes for an hour.
DD4 just didn't fall asleep and didn't fall asleep and didn't... and then started kvetching for things, and then got upset when I told her all discussion was over for the night, had a little tantrum, went to the bathroom, went back to bed, and pretty much knocked herself out with the crying. Which is just sad for someone who started off on the right track. She was a little hyper at bedtime but I reminded her that she has a chart from school for going to sleep nicely, so she settled down and really went very nicely in the end. I gave her extra massages. Calming music. Regular kiddie music. Nothing helped at all.

FranticFrummie

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 3:44 am

Between 2 and 3 kids are starting to outgrow their naps, but they don't have a regular sleep pattern to accommodate that yet. I remember that stage, and it was HARD! I think that DD2's fussiness is keeping DD4 awake, and that's what's causing the problems. Sorry to say, until DD2 gets back into a pattern, this may keep happening.

I simply gave up on a sleep schedule until my DD was around 4. Sometimes I'd find her fast asleep in the middle of the kitchen floor, she'd just fall over and crash right where she was playing.

I'm a huge fan of melatonin, but I wouldn't start with it until at least age 5 or 6, when you really have to get them up and ready for school the next day. Until then, if their schedule gets messed up, it's not so important (except for the fact that it wrecks your evening, and your nerves. At wits end

)

Maybe just let them stay up until they beg to be put to bed, and hang out with a glass of wine. Cheers

(or two)

Barbara

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 6:13 pm

srbmom wrote:

What time do you put them to sleep? Is it possible that they are overtired? I was having trouble with both my kids bedtimes and my pediatrician suggested we move up bedtime a half hour. It has changed my life. Both kids go to sleep nicely and still wake up the same time, so theyre also getting extra sleep.

I'd guess the opposite.

A 4 year old needs between 10 and 12 hours of sleep each day. So assuming that the 4 year old wakes at 7 or so in the morning, she's at the maximum edge of needed sleep. However, she may need less, and simply not be tired at 7 pm.

Even a 2 year old only needs 12 to 14 hours. So with a nap, she might just not be tired.

srbmom

Mon, Jan 19 2015, 6:56 pm

Quote:

Well, that's why I asked what time she was putting them to sleep. I guess I should have also asked when they were waking up.

My kids wake up at 6, so moving their bedtime back from 7:30 to 7 helped them.
But she is putting her kids in at 7, so then that is probably not the issue.

Also, according to the National Sleep Foundation a 3-5 yr old needs 11-13 hours of sleep. So the 12 hours is probably not too much.

seeker

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 9:49 am

She's not extra energetic I think, but does have difficulty self-regulating (sensory stuff). She sometimes wakes early and sometimes doesn't but when she doesn't sleep well she is cranky and difficult in the morning. So I don't think too much sleep is the issue.

We are not moving (alas), just wanting to get more closet space in our current apt.

I do sometimes put 2yo in a little later but when she goes to bed right away she is not disruptive. She lays nicely for up to an hour before she starts bopping around. And is anyway in a different room (though close.) I consider it a sleep problem when 4yo is still not asleep after that hour, sometimes even while lying quietly the whole time!

seeker

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 11:56 am

Nap varies, it's like she's phasing out of it but still needs it. At school (generally 3 days a week) naptime is something like 1:30-2:15, of which they don't necessarily sleep the whole time. She usually gets home (2:30) still tired but good enough to go until bedtime unless we go somewhere in a car (not often.) On non-school days she either doesn't nap, or naps for too long (when she's tired, she can be VERY stubborn about not waking up! Like you can pick her up and bounce her around and she will plop right back to sleep. Never at night though! At night she's a light sleeper Rolling Eyes

) I try to start her nap by 12:30 but sometimes it doesn't work and then she is plopping and can't stay awake later. So either: She naps from 12:30/1ish until I can get her up, or she doesn't fall asleep at 12/1 and stays up but cranky until bedtime, or she falls asleep in the 2-ish range and then wakes up maybe an hour later.

I like to blame the naps when she doesn't fall asleep well at night, but she still shows obvious signs of tiredness and actually tries to fall asleep, so I'm not sure... maybe the nap is messing her up but it's not because she isn't tired.