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Doctors will not see patients with anti-vaccine views
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blueberries




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 9:47 am
With California gripped by a measles outbreak, Dr. Charles Goodman posted a clear notice in his waiting room and on Facebook: His practice will no longer see children whose parents won't get them vaccinated.

"Parents who choose not to give measles shots, they're not just putting their kids at risk, but they're also putting other kids at risk — especially kids in my waiting room," the Los Angeles pediatrician said.

It's a sentiment echoed by a small number of doctors who in recent years have "fired" patients who continue to believe debunked research linking vaccines to autism. They hope the strategy will lead parents to change their minds; if that fails, they hope it will at least reduce the risk to other children in the office.

The tough-love approach — which comes amid the nation's second-biggest measles outbreak in at least 15 years, with at least 98 cases reported since last month — raises questions about doctors' ethical responsibilities. Most of the measles cases have been traced directly or indirectly to Disneyland in Southern California.

The American Academy of Pediatrics says doctors should bring up the importance of vaccinations during visits but should respect a parent's wishes unless there's a significant risk to the child.

Pediatrician Charles Goodman holds a dose …
"In general, pediatricians should avoid discharging patients from their practices solely because a parent refuses to immunize his or her child," according to guidelines issued by the group.

However, if the relationship between patient and doctor becomes unworkable, the pediatrics academy says, the doctor may want to encourage the vaccine refuser to go to another physician.

Some mothers who have been dropped by their doctors feel "betrayed and upset," said Dotty Hagmier, founder of the support group Moms in Charge. She said these parents made up their minds about vaccines after "careful research and diligence to understand the risks versus the benefits for their own children's circumstances."

Dropping patients who refuse vaccines has become a hot topic of discussion on SERMO, an online doctor hangout. Some doctors are adamant about not accepting patients who don't believe in vaccinations, with some saying they don't want to be responsible for someone's death from an illness that was preventable.

Others warn that refusing treatment to such people will just send them into the arms of quacks.

The measles-mumps-rubella vaccine, or MMR, is 97 percent effective at preventing measles, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Measles spreads easily through the air and in enclosed spaces. Symptoms include fever, runny nose, cough and a rash all over the body. In rare cases, particularly among babies, measles can be deadly. Infection can also cause pregnant women to miscarry or give birth prematurely.

All states require children to get certain vaccinations to enroll in school. California is among 20 states that let parents opt out by obtaining personal belief waivers. Some people worry that vaccines cause developmental problems, despite scientific evidence disproving any link. Others object for religious or philosophical reasons.

Nationally, childhood measles vaccination rates have held steady for years at above 90 percent. But there seem to be growing pockets of unvaccinated people in scattered communities, said Dr. Gregory Wallace of the CDC.

In recent years, nearly all U.S. measles cases have been linked to travelers who caught the virus abroad and spread it in this country among unvaccinated people.

Northern California's Marin County has a high rate of people claiming personal belief exemptions. In 2012, Dr. Nelson Branco and his partners at a Marin County practice started turning away toddlers whose parents refused to make sure they received the measles vaccine.

Branco said 10 to 20 of his practice's 8,000 or so patients left after the change.

Vaccines "can be spooky for parents," Branco said. But "in the end, we have the science. We have the experience that it's the right thing to do.

http://news.yahoo.com/doctors-......html
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 9:52 am
I was about to post this... Earlier in the week I went to my local hospital to sign some releases for records. They had a sign like that posted and I wondered how many unvaxed folks turned around?
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 10:09 am
My pediatrician won't take non vaxxing kids either. Popular Brooklyn pediatrician. He worked with my friend to space them out however she was comfortable, but when she started skipping them all together he told her she would have to find a different practice if that was her plan. No one needs to bring their newborns into an office full of nonvaccinated kids!

Anon only because I don't think it is my place to name the doctor.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 10:12 am
MagentaYenta wrote:
I was about to post this... Earlier in the week I went to my local hospital to sign some releases for records. They had a sign like that posted and I wondered how many unvaxed folks turned around?


Are you saying the hospital won't treat unvaccinated patients? As in emergency room is turning people away? Or are you talking about a doctor who has his office at a hospital complex?
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 10:16 am
amother wrote:
Are you saying the hospital won't treat unvaccinated patients? As in emergency room is turning people away? Or are you talking about a doctor who has his office at a hospital complex?


I'm sorry I should have qualified, it was regarding visitors. I don't know what their admissions policy with regards to vaxing.
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 10:17 am
This practice was pretty commonplace in the late 1990s when Wakefield's false study was published. Doctors turned away individuals who would not vaccinate, but I guess that with time that firm stance became kind of lax. It's a dilemma because doctors want to treat children and often themselves have a difficult time denying medical care to a child because of a parent's decision. Right now, with a current measles outbreak in California, doctors have to choose to deny the care to the unvaccinated children in order to protect others in the practice. When an outbreak dies down however, many doctors will probably become lax again (not because they agree with it in principle, but because they feel for the children and want to provide them with medical care and since the "measles" risk is lower when there is no outbreak, they agree to see the children).
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 10:23 am
We were tossed out of our original pediatric practice for this reason years ago. (We weren't even skipping vaccines, just delaying - at that point). I was highly upset at the time but it all worked out for the best. We now have a more like-minded doctor.
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JAWSCIENCE




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 11:49 am
While the pediatricians in this article are male, many are female. I could understand a female physician refusing unvaccinated children to protect herself if she is pregnant even when there isn't an outbreak. And if you take it a step further there are a lot of pregnant women bringing their toddlers into the physicians office. Pregnant women/fetuses are uniquely vulnerable even if they have been vaccinated. I think these doctors are just trying to make a responsible choice for the bulk of people they see. If a parent is OK taking on this extra risk for themselves, they cannot force it on others. Therefore they need a like minded pediatrician who sees likeminded patients - meaning all have said this extra risk is OK with them.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 12:16 pm
JAWSCIENCE wrote:
While the pediatricians in this article are male, many are female. I could understand a female physician refusing unvaccinated children to protect herself if she is pregnant even when there isn't an outbreak. And if you take it a step further there are a lot of pregnant women bringing their toddlers into the physicians office. Pregnant women/fetuses are uniquely vulnerable even if they have been vaccinated. I think these doctors are just trying to make a responsible choice for the bulk of people they see. If a parent is OK taking on this extra risk for themselves, they cannot force it on others. Therefore they need a like minded pediatrician who sees likeminded patients - meaning all have said this extra risk is OK with them.


Back in my early days of practice, a colleague had a client who would always ignore her advice. "Hi, Sue. We'd like to do X. Is that OK?" "No, because ...." Three months later. "Sue, I know you told us not to do X, but we did it anyway. We've received a violation notice from the state. Can you take a look at it?" It paid the bills, I guess.

But many doctors don't see it that way. They see vaccination as a foundation of their practices. And if you don't trust them as to the foundation, if you think that they're fundamentally wrong, then why on earth would you want them to treat your children? And why would they want to treat your children, knowing that you fundamentally don't trust them?

So its not "you create risk to me." Its "I cannot effectively treat a patient who does not trust my judgments and my way of doing things."
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 12:23 pm
JAWSCIENCE wrote:
While the pediatricians in this article are male, many are female. I could understand a female physician refusing unvaccinated children to protect herself if she is pregnant even when there isn't an outbreak. And if you take it a step further there are a lot of pregnant women bringing their toddlers into the physicians office. Pregnant women/fetuses are uniquely vulnerable even if they have been vaccinated. I think these doctors are just trying to make a responsible choice for the bulk of people they see. If a parent is OK taking on this extra risk for themselves, they cannot force it on others. Therefore they need a like minded pediatrician who sees likeminded patients - meaning all have said this extra risk is OK with them.


I am the Amother above who was tossed from the ped's office. The reason they tossed us came down to fear of law suits. They feared that either:

1. If one of our kids contracted a disease that we did not vaccinate for we could sue them for not being more firm in pushing us to do so (sounds stupid, but law suits are often stupid), OR
2. If another patient contracted a disease that they DID vaccinate for but then found out that they could have been exposed to non-vaxed patients in the waiting room and contracted the disease there they could sue the doctors (equally stupid, since it would be impossible to prove, but like I said about law suits...)

So it had nothing to do with fear for their safety. Male or female not relevant.

PS, they told us so. I am not guessing.
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Rubber Ducky




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 12:46 pm
amother wrote:
I am the Amother above who was tossed from the ped's office. The reason they tossed us came down to fear of law suits. They feared that either:

1. If one of our kids contracted a disease that we did not vaccinate for we could sue them for not being more firm in pushing us to do so (sounds stupid, but law suits are often stupid), OR
2. If another patient contracted a disease that they DID vaccinate for but then found out that they could have been exposed to non-vaxed patients in the waiting room and contracted the disease there they could sue the doctors (equally stupid, since it would be impossible to prove, but like I said about law suits...)

So it had nothing to do with fear for their safety. Male or female not relevant.

PS, they told us so. I am not guessing.

Fear of lawsuits appears to drive a lot of medical decisions these days, but I think tossing you was the right thing to do even without the lawsuit component. I'm glad you found a practice that suited your views better.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 12:56 pm
In my area 30 infants are under a 21 day isolation in their homes because they visited their pediatricians office on the same day that a patient with measles did.

I have an infant and have to go in regularly with her for checkups. I know that in my area, 10% of kids are unvaccinated on personal belief exemptions. So I feel so much better about going into the doctors office knowing that my pediatrician doesn't see patients who refuse vaccinations.

In addition, our peds office has instituted a new protocol where any lite to coming in with a fever or rash is first seen in the parking lot by a doctor before being cleared to come into the office. This seems like a really smart idea to me during this outbreak, though probably not easy to maintain in the long term. (We are in the Bay Area).

Some doctors may have these policies out of fear of being sued , but I think that most do it because they feel strongly about protecting the health of their patients who are not yet vaccinated or can't receive the vaccine for other medical reasons.
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eastsidemother




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 12:56 pm
In the face of the measles epidemic in California and the numerous whooping cough epidemics across the U.S. due to parental failure to vaccinate, we are going to see a strong push to eliminate nearly all statutory exemptions to school vaccination and a push from physicians to do exactly what this physician has done--refuse to see any children whose parents refuse to vaccinate. As it should be.

The argument over the scientific basis for vaccinating is so ridiculous as to almost be nonsensical. "Personal choice" non-vaccinators have been skimming the trough of herd immunity for long enough.

Watching this debate appear again and again on imamother has frankly become boring. There are at least 4 different varying topics on this here today. Everyone tries to convince the non-vaccinators that they don't know what they are talking about. The non-vaccinators claim everyone from vaccinators to doctors to big pharma to the government is trying to kill their kids to make money.

The non-vaccinators will never be convinced unless these diseases become so completely epidemic so as to become endemic once again. The ethics of science and medicine will not allow this to happen, and so the debate continues.

Remove the statutory exemptions except for medical exceptions for public school access, remove the ability of parents to expose their unvaccinated children in physicians' offices, and eventually, this will become a non-issue. No need to win any ridiculous debates about the color of the sky.
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youngishbear




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 1:00 pm
Hear, hear.
Applause

I was thinking that we face a catch-22. The only way to punish or wake up the nonvaxxers is for all of us to stop vaccinating and the diseases will come back in full force.

Not a very good idea.
What
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 1:02 pm
Wish I can like eastsider above 100 times! Love the post!
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 1:38 pm
amother wrote:
In my area 30 infants are under a 21 day isolation in their homes because they visited their pediatricians office on the same day that a patient with measles did.

I have an infant and have to go in regularly with her for checkups. I know that in my area, 10% of kids are unvaccinated on personal belief exemptions. So I feel so much better about going into the doctors office knowing that my pediatrician doesn't see patients who refuse vaccinations.

In addition, our peds office has instituted a new protocol where any lite to coming in with a fever or rash is first seen in the parking lot by a doctor before being cleared to come into the office. This seems like a really smart idea to me during this outbreak, though probably not easy to maintain in the long term. (We are in the Bay Area).

Some doctors may have these policies out of fear of being sued , but I think that most do it because they feel strongly about protecting the health of their patients who are not yet vaccinated or can't receive the vaccine for other medical reasons.


I live in the Bay Area. Are you comfortable sharing the name of your practice? We may be looking to switch to a like-minded practice.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 1:46 pm
I think there's a great opportunity for a niche market doctor. If they're willing to take all of the unvaccinated patients, then the other doctors can send them referrals.

The other option is for non vaxers to go to naturapathic clinics instead of allopathic doctors.

Either way, it makes regular waiting rooms much safer for the rest of us.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 1:55 pm
When my baby was 1 month old, I got back the results of his metabolic disorder screening and there was an abnormal result.

I didn't yet have a pediatrician due to insurance issues. I called one up and the first question they asked was if he'd had his Hep B shot.

I told them, "No, I'm not a carrier, no family members are carriers, and he's home with me all day."

They refused to see him.

Tell me how this is not utterly ridiculous.

What is he at risk of? What is he going to spread to other patients in the waiting room?
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 1:58 pm
amother wrote:
When my baby was 1 month old, I got back the results of his metabolic disorder screening and there was an abnormal result.

I didn't yet have a pediatrician due to insurance issues. I called one up and the first question they asked was if he'd had his Hep B shot.

I told them, "No, I'm not a carrier, no family members are carriers, and he's home with me all day."

They refused to see him.

Tell me how this is not utterly ridiculous.

What is he at risk of? What is he going to spread to other patients in the waiting room?


I'm not sure why they singled out the hep-b shot, but it seems this doctor has the policy mentioned here, to not see patients who refuse vaccines.

Maybe in your case it was to protect the baby from others in the waiting room, who knows?
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bookie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 30 2015, 2:02 pm
amother wrote:
When my baby was 1 month old, I got back the results of his metabolic disorder screening and there was an abnormal result.

I didn't yet have a pediatrician due to insurance issues. I called one up and the first question they asked was if he'd had his Hep B shot.

I told them, "No, I'm not a carrier, no family members are carriers, and he's home with me all day."

They refused to see him.

Tell me how this is not utterly ridiculous.

What is he at risk of? What is he going to spread to other patients in the waiting room?


If there policy is that they don't accept unvaxed kids than that included all kids no matter what. Why should you be an exception?
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