thoughts abt. yeshiva/schools handing out diplomas

amother

Sat, Jan 31 2015, 7:25 pm

My DH works in a high school where a significant % of the students just don't have the ability to legitimately take and pass high school level courses and earn a diploma. My DH says that ultimately the yeshiva is not going to fail half the students and instead just hand out diplomas to almost everybody with the exception of perhaps the very worst of the students. Thoughts?

Rubber Ducky

Sat, Jan 31 2015, 7:44 pm

That's just sad. Why don't the boys have the ability to pass high school level classes? Are remedial courses a possibility here? Is this a regular yeshiva high school or some kind of special ed?

I don't think the school should hand out unearned diplomas. But I do see how denying the boys diplomas might lead to repercussions in, for example, future enrollment or in contributions to the school.

Ema of 5

Sat, Jan 31 2015, 8:32 pm

amother wrote:

Well now that doesn't really help anyone, does that help?
When I was a senior, my principal came to me right before pesach and told me I wouldn't be graduating because I had failed too many classes and had missed too much school. Ya know what they did? They gave me a blank folder. No diploma, just the folder. Or maybe it was a blank diploma....was a while ago, so I don't remember. I got my diploma a year later, through correspondence.
My father used to say that the public school down the block from our house would have their students graduate as functional illiterates. I guess the trend has been picked up in yeshivas too....

BlueRose52

Sat, Jan 31 2015, 8:36 pm

amother wrote:

While I know that playing fast and loose with certain government regulations is common in some yeshivas, I honestly find it hard to believe that a yeshiva would so openly flout the law. Aside from the trouble this can get them into, don't they care at all about the message this sends to the students?

Last edited by BlueRose52 on Sat, Jan 31 2015, 8:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

BlueRose52

Sat, Jan 31 2015, 8:40 pm

amother wrote:

Can you please clarify, what, "don't have the ability to legitimately take and pass high school level courses and earn a diploma" means. Are they all developmentally disabled?

If what you mean is that the school doesn't provide them the means to pass, by not offering the relevant classes or having qualified teachers who teach the material, it's not really a question of them lacking the ability, but rather lacking the means.

amother

Sat, Jan 31 2015, 8:43 pm

Outright geneivas daas and possibly fraud from a legal standpoint as well. If I'm an employer, I may want to hire a HS grad because I need someone with whatever skills and knowledge a HS diploma represents. Now all these young people with counterfeit diplomas will be wasting my recruiting time, presenting themselves as possessing skills and knowledge that they lack. Thanks for nothing. The administration of that school should be ashamed of themselves.

Furthermore, the school has just cheated every young man who worked his toches off to pass his exams and EARN his diploma. That diploma is now not worth the paper on which it's printed.

amother

Sat, Jan 31 2015, 9:00 pm

OP again....My DH says that a significant number of boys fall into either of these 2 categories: 1- Simply don't have the "brainpower" to pass real high school classes such as algebra, earth science, chemistry ect. 2- Have major behavioral problems or ADD/ADHD issues and literally can't sit still for more that 2 minutes at a time. Most yeshivas won't consider these boys. My DH likes to say that on one hand the yeshiva is possibly the most important yeshiva in the neighborhood because without it many of these boys would either be home, on the street, or in public school. The yeshiva is in a tough spot because they want to consider themselves a legitimate high school but on the other hand many if not most of the boys can't really pass high school classes. What would happen to the yeshiva if they failed most of the boys? I'm not sure parents would continue sending if its just a babysitting service.

zaq

Sat, Jan 31 2015, 9:24 pm

Why doesn't this school quit trying to be all things to all people? And why don't parents face facts and understand that not everyone was born with the ability to be a scholar? If they really want to help these boys, let them teach them a trade with which they can earn a living, and make themselves a legitimate vocational-training school that also teaches Jewish studies. The frum world needs baalei melocho just as much as it need Torah scholars.

SRS

Sat, Jan 31 2015, 9:53 pm

amother wrote:

My DH likes to say that on one hand the yeshiva is possibly the most important yeshiva in the neighborhood because without it many of these boys would either be home, on the street, or in public school. The yeshiva is in a tough spot because they want to consider themselves a legitimate high school but on the other hand many if not most of the boys can't really pass high school classes. What would happen to the yeshiva if they failed most of the boys? I'm not sure parents would continue sending if its just a babysitting service.

From the standpoint of basic honesty, the school can't hand out a diploma if the requirements to have a diploma are not met. Every state and district is different, but where I grew up a diploma met that you have a certain grade point average and had passed a proficiency exam. Vocational students also passed proficiency exam and a graduated with a vocational certificate recognized by county businesses.

It doesn't sound like this school is doing much more than babysitting especially with the opinion of a staff member than they kids don't have the "brainpower" or "ability to sit still." Why isn't the school working with the raw material that they have? Why is it trying to be a "legitimate yeshiva" and take parents money under that pretense when these children need something different? Is the yeshiva really serving the students or protecting itself? (Sorry to sound harsh, but it is ridiculous to turn out adults who won't achieve academically and pretend that they have been served by avoidance of public school).

And of course parents share plenty of blame in the entire farce too. Sometimes you just have have to recognize your child's abilities for what they are and build on that.

Dandelion1

Sat, Jan 31 2015, 10:40 pm

amother wrote:

But they are only legitimate if they are addressing the students' true and actual needs. I don't understand the dilemma.... If they are accepting kids with special needs, they need to be addressing those needs. And if they are doing so, there would be no need for subterfuge and false anything.

zaq

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 12:25 am

amother wrote:

to the above poster- I'm not sure its a disservice if the alternative is hanging out in the street or going to public school. No other yeshiva will go near these boys.

The boys may not be scholars but they aren't entirely stupid, either. They know full well their diplomas are worthless. Seems to me the parents would do their sons a bigger service if they sent them to a real school that actually taught them something, even if that school were a secular vocational school. Boys cannot stay in so-called high school forever, and after 4 years of this sort of babysitting, they WILL be out on the street, with nothing to show for the time they spent there. Let them go to a Vocational-Technical School and at least learn a skill with which they can make an honest living.

out-of-towner

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 12:27 am

amother wrote:

to the above poster- I'm not sure its a disservice if the alternative is hanging out in the street or going to public school. No other yeshiva will go near these boys.

It's a disservice to the boys if they are given diplomas that say that they have certain knowledge and skills which they do not have. Would you give an MD license to a person who didn't know basic biology? A high school diploma indicates that one has sufficient knowledge in specific subjects. If they don't have that, then giving them a diploma is a disservice to them and. To anyone who wants to hire them in the future. Or accept them into college for that matter, as many college courses require knowledge of high school level subjects.

MagentaYenta

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 12:34 am

amother wrote:

to the above poster- I'm not sure its a disservice if the alternative is hanging out in the street or going to public school. No other yeshiva will go near these boys.

School should be preparation for what comes afterwards. Are these children being taught even basic life skills? What options will they have post HS? Literacy, in science, language and mathematics are needed for individuals to have any kind of an independent life.

Dandelion1

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 12:46 am

amother wrote:

to the above poster- I'm not sure its a disservice if the alternative is hanging out in the street or going to public school. No other yeshiva will go near these boys.

But don't you see, having all these boys all collected in a school that is well-intended and bighearted and accepting of them is an amazing and commendable first step.

But the crucial step number two is offering curriculum, educational, remedial, psychological, social, what have you, that addresses their unique needs in appropriate and effective ways.

One of my children attends such a school. They never stop trying to offer learning experiences in any way shape or form that will meet the students where they are at that point. And most of them get their diplomas, and have truly earned them, sometimes with necessary but legitimate, state approved modifications in curriculum and testing methods.

What parent would want make believe instead of that??

Fox

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 1:01 am

aleph wrote:

ITA!

There is really no such thing as an agreed-upon concept of "high-school level." States may require certain numbers of classes in certain subjects, but individual school districts and schools are in charge of what is actually taught in those classes.

Aside from student abilities, the rigor of high school courses often depends on the quality of faculty teaching individual subjects as well as the commitment of the school district to fund necessary equipment or texts for specific subjects. This has long been an issue in rural school districts, where it is sometimes difficult to find talented teachers in certain subjects.

So while a high school diploma tells us that a student completed X number of years of Y subjects, it doesn't tell us anything about how rigorous those courses were or if the students mastered anything. Which is why colleges use SAT scores in addition to high school grades to make admission decisions.

BTW, many trade/technical programs will not admit students without a diploma or GED. Aleph is absolutely right: the diploma isn't really the issue; the issue is whether these students are getting every opportunity to get the language arts and math skills that will enable them to be successful in whatever work or business they pursue.

DrMom

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 1:37 am

As I understand it (someone please correct me if I am mistaken), any institution can print out "diplomas" and hand them out to their students after they finish their course of study. BUT only diplomas from schools which are accredited have any real value beyond that.

OP, is this yeshiva an accredited high school? Are you saying that the school is accredited and is handing out diplomas even though the students have not completed state accreditation requirements? Or is the yeshiva unaccredited and just printing out "stam" certificates and calling them "diplomas?"

Tablepoetry

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 1:45 am

In Israel, there are two types of diplomas. There's a high school diploma which you get just by virtue of having attended for 12 years (I think you have to pass at least half the classes, but barely pass is OK too). This is important. Many entry-level workplaces have this as a requirement.

Then there's the bagrut, which is the matriculation certificate, and shows you have some academic level (all sorts of different levels here). You need that to get into any college or university.

But I've attended graduation ceremonies at very, very problematic, weak high schools, where it was obvious that many kids had no chance of attaining a bagrut, and yet every single child was called up to the podium to receive his or her diploma, with the entire crowd clapping. Some immigrant families, especially from Ethiopia, wait for the kid to come down with his 'diploma' and shower him with flowers and gifts on the spot.

This 'diploma' is a big, big deal for many people. It's a step up. So it's not a full academic diploma. So what? It's all or nothing? A kid who sat through 12 years in a classroom deserves to leave with empty hands, just because he's not academically strong?