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Thoughts abt. yeshiva/schools handing out diplomas
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Tablepoetry




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 31 2015, 10:51 pm
I should add, the system in Israel seems to be different than the system in the USA (which I am not familiar with). Here, the high school diploma means you survived high school (again, I think you need to pass half the courses). It's internal.

The bagrut is EXTERNAL. In other words, it's a high school matriculation certificate awarded based on how you fare on nation-wide exams, administered to the entire country at the same time, under exacting supervision. It measures how you compare to the rest of the country.

I find it strange that it seems the US doesn't have any such type of measurement, beyond the SATs (we have that too, called a psychometric exam).
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Dandelion1




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 31 2015, 10:54 pm
Tablepoetry wrote:
In Israel, there are two types of diplomas. There's a high school diploma which you get just by virtue of having attended for 12 years (I think you have to pass at least half the classes, but barely pass is OK too). This is important. Many entry-level workplaces have this as a requirement.

Then there's the bagrut, which is the matriculation certificate, and shows you have some academic level (all sorts of different levels here). You need that to get into any college or university.

But I've attended graduation ceremonies at very, very problematic, weak high schools, where it was obvious that many kids had no chance of attaining a bagrut, and yet every single child was called up to the podium to receive his or her diploma, with the entire crowd clapping. Some immigrant families, especially from Ethiopia, wait for the kid to come down with his 'diploma' and shower him with flowers and gifts on the spot.

This 'diploma' is a big, big deal for many people. It's a step up. So it's not a full academic diploma. So what? It's all or nothing? A kid who sat through 12 years in a classroom deserves to leave with empty hands, just because he's not academically strong?


ITA.... just so long as the kids are being offered actual, legitimate, educationally sound curriculum at their level. Not just being dismissed as incapable and pretending that something is happening in the classroom and then handed pretend diplomas. Don't know if that is what op was saying is going on or not....
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m in Israel




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 31 2015, 11:58 pm
Tablepoetry wrote:
I should add, the system in Israel seems to be different than the system in the USA (which I am not familiar with). Here, the high school diploma means you survived high school (again, I think you need to pass half the courses). It's internal.

The bagrut is EXTERNAL. In other words, it's a high school matriculation certificate awarded based on how you fare on nation-wide exams, administered to the entire country at the same time, under exacting supervision. It measures how you compare to the rest of the country.

I find it strange that it seems the US doesn't have any such type of measurement, beyond the SATs (we have that too, called a psychometric exam).


Yes, it is a very interesting aspect of the U.S. school system, and one of the reasons many colleges rely disproportionately on the SATs. NY state has "Regents exams" which are a similar concept to the Bagrut, and one cannot get a "Regents Diploma" without passing the external Regents exams, which I believe is currently the only acceptable type of diploma recognized by the NY state education department. But as far as I know NY is the only state with that system. In the rest of the country a diploma is issued basically for passing the courses in your individual school. So while there may be laws regarding how many classes are needed to graduate (4 years of English and math, for example, a certain number of science and social science courses, etc.), the individual school districts or even the individual schools will determine what constitutes "passing" those classes.

It sounds like what OP's husband's school is doing is simply setting the "bar" for passing those classes very very low (she said they do fail a few of the absolute lowest performers in each class). That is probably not considered fraud, although if the school is in fact an accredited institution they probably do have to demonstrate that their students are achieving some basic competency in order to keep that accreditation.

My issue here is a much bigger one then whether or not the school hands out some sort of "diploma". It disturbs me to no end that the educators in this school have given up on their own students because they feel they don't have the "brain power" to learn or because they have ADHD. As as special ed teacher with many years of experience with the population of students with learning disabilities and ADHD, I can say that there are very few students who absolutely "can't" meet some sort of basic competency standards. As previous posters have said, why is the school not providing these students with remedial instruction and support services and attempting to help them use these years productively? Maybe they will need to modify certain aspects of the curriculum, but throwing your hands up and saying "they can't do it anyway, let's just babysit them for 4 years but give a diploma at the end so the parents won't feel like they are being babysat" seems to me to be doing a tremendous avlah to these students. What happens to them next?
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amother


 

Post Sun, Feb 01 2015, 2:45 am
amother wrote:
Outright geneivas daas and possibly fraud from a legal standpoint as well. If I'm an employer, I may want to hire a HS grad because I need someone with whatever skills and knowledge a HS diploma represents. Now all these young people with counterfeit diplomas will be wasting my recruiting time, presenting themselves as possessing skills and knowledge that they lack. Thanks for nothing. The administration of that school should be ashamed of themselves.

Furthermore, the school has just cheated every young man who worked his toches off to pass his exams and EARN his diploma. That diploma is now not worth the paper on which it's printed.

How is it different from what some chasidishe schools do? They give out high school diplomas to everyone as well and those aren't accredited but you (or the students graduating from these schools) don't know that. If say a satmar girl tries to get a job with you and tells you that she has a high school diploma then would you consider that to be fraudulent as well because she doesn't have a real high school diploma? If satmar girls can get away with it then why can't op' s husbands yeshiva do the same thing?
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 01 2015, 2:51 am
Are teh parents aware that their children are not getting real diplomas?

I think this stealing on so many different levels. SUch a school is not doing anything positive for these boys because the diploma will not mean a thing in the future for them.

What a terrible thing to read. Really. I would be embarrassed to work in such a school knowing this. And Im not sure why parents send to a school if they do know that there is no diploma.
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 01 2015, 3:25 am
It's very different in Israel cause even the public schools in Israel are Jewish and can also be Religious public schools. That means that there are lots of special ed Yeshivot here too. With a clear conscious a yeshiva here can tell a student that they're really not capable of keeping up with the standard HS and know there are Yeshiva HS options for them whether they are LD or ADHD. (I'm not talking about the Chareidi ones that stop teaching secular subjects to boys after 4th grade - I don't think that's what we're talking about - They really don't care about a diploma).

So here every child can find the "right" Yeshiva for them. A Yeshiva that will "expect" them to pass with the right help. Or a Yeshiva that will give other training to the boys who really don't have the brain power. Cheating a kid into a diploma at a regular school is really cheating the kid. Those kids either need special ed help closing the gap, or need a program that can realize their own potential. The kids with the fake diplomas will also fail in life. Those schools should be closed down!!
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 01 2015, 4:00 am
amother wrote:
How is it different from what some chasidishe schools do? They give out high school diplomas to everyone as well and those aren't accredited but you (or the students graduating from these schools) don't know that. If say a satmar girl tries to get a job with you and tells you that she has a high school diploma then would you consider that to be fraudulent as well because she doesn't have a real high school diploma? If satmar girls can get away with it then why can't op' s husbands yeshiva do the same thing?


There are certain schools that everyone in the community knows are weak. Most of the students who "graduate" from the school go to work in the community so their skill level comes as no surprise. They are sought after by the community for their loyalty. Many businesses can't hire outsiders for several reasons and these crippled "graduates" can't work for outsiders. The system is working at the moment.

I am not endorsing not educating students just merely making an observation.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 01 2015, 4:04 am
“I can't give you a brain, but I can give you a diploma.” ― L. Frank Baum
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 01 2015, 4:10 am
imasoftov wrote:
“I can't give you a brain, but I can give you a diploma.” ― L. Frank Baum
And then he started to think smart thoughts!! Actually he was the one who always came up with the smartest ideas so he didn't need the brain - Just the diploma
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amother


 

Post Sun, Feb 01 2015, 4:47 am
OP here. Most of the parents know whats really going on and are very happy with the unearned diploma. Again, it all comes down to the alternative....not having a school and staying home. I think part of the problem is that very few (actually none) other yeshivas will take any achrayis for these boys. The result is that a single school has a collection of say, 80 boys at 20 per class, almost all of whom have major academic/behavioral problems. The point is that if the other 20 yeshivas in the neighborhood would each be willing to take 4 of these boys, then maybe each group of 4 would benefit from the atmosphere of learning in a solid class. Instead, we have all the "misfits" in one yeshiva. My DH says that they clearly bring each other down. There is no shame in the degrading way they talk or act because they all fit right in with their peers within the school. Most yeshivas are more interested in maintaining their reputation then in reaching out and helping a boy who is very down. The net result is that when these boys are all lumped together with each other, it really is hopeless.
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 01 2015, 5:10 am
Quote:
Instead, we have all the "misfits" in one yeshiva.

Quote:
Most yeshivas are more interested in maintaining their reputation then in reaching out and helping a boy who is very down.

Forget the other Yeshivot. There's nothing they can really do for these boys. They have ADHD or LD and will always be the "misfit" in the regular Yeshiva. What is a shame is that with so many boys that need help no one realizes that there are enough kids to fill a "special" Yeshiva. It works well in Israel. The teachers and Rabbanim all learn special ed. The schools have a lot more social workers and guidance counselors and lots of tutoring too. The classes are much smaller and shorter. These Yeshivot are funded by the gov't cause they're special ed schools as well a lot of donations (people love to donate to things like this).

So if you have all these kids in one school anyway, it's such a shame that it's not meeting the needs of these "special" kids.

(I realize that OP nor her husband are the one to start such a school but someone should wherever this is)
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 01 2015, 5:13 am
amother wrote:
OP here. Most of the parents know whats really going on and are very happy with the unearned diploma. Again, it all comes down to the alternative....not having a school and staying home. I think part of the problem is that very few (actually none) other yeshivas will take any achrayis for these boys. The result is that a single school has a collection of say, 80 boys at 20 per class, almost all of whom have major academic/behavioral problems. The point is that if the other 20 yeshivas in the neighborhood would each be willing to take 4 of these boys, then maybe each group of 4 would benefit from the atmosphere of learning in a solid class. Instead, we have all the "misfits" in one yeshiva. My DH says that they clearly bring each other down. There is no shame in the degrading way they talk or act because they all fit right in with their peers within the school. Most yeshivas are more interested in maintaining their reputation then in reaching out and helping a boy who is very down. The net result is that when these boys are all lumped together with each other, it really is hopeless.

Wait: Is the issue a learning issue or a behavioral issue?

I'm confused as to why no special education options are available to these boys. It sounds like they are all being "warehoused" in this yeshiva and not given proper educational assistance. Why would the community want this? Why would the parents want this?
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 01 2015, 5:24 am
DrMom wrote:
Wait: Is the issue a learning issue or a behavioral issue?

I'm confused as to why no special education options are available to these boys. It sounds like they are all being "warehoused" in this yeshiva and not given proper educational assistance. Why would the community want this? Why would the parents want this?
It's a vicious cycle. The boys act like this cause they're treated like this. They're treated like this cause they act like this. Everyone assumes they're hopeless so they act hopeless. It's sort of how they treated kids with any handicap in the old days. Lock them up out of site.
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Dandelion1




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 01 2015, 7:50 am
amother wrote:
OP here. Most of the parents know whats really going on and are very happy with the unearned diploma. Again, it all comes down to the alternative....not having a school and staying home. I think part of the problem is that very few (actually none) other yeshivas will take any achrayis for these boys. The result is that a single school has a collection of say, 80 boys at 20 per class, almost all of whom have major academic/behavioral problems. The point is that if the other 20 yeshivas in the neighborhood would each be willing to take 4 of these boys, then maybe each group of 4 would benefit from the atmosphere of learning in a solid class. Instead, we have all the "misfits" in one yeshiva. My DH says that they clearly bring each other down. There is no shame in the degrading way they talk or act because they all fit right in with their peers within the school. Most yeshivas are more interested in maintaining their reputation then in reaching out and helping a boy who is very down. The net result is that when these boys are all lumped together with each other, it really is hopeless.


This is so terribly sad to hear. Hopeless?? It surely is, if what your dh said is truly the opinion of this school's administration. There are absolutely special schools which cater to the needs to kids who are unable to attend more mainstream schools, whether due to educational or behavioral issues.

Accepting these boys into a school and taking their parents money is not a chessed. These parents are paying for a service. If the school is not doing its utmost to provide for the special needs of the students whose family's money they are taking, it is disgraceful fraud and theft as far as I can see.

I understand that if you have never been exposed to kids like these you might assume that just sticking them amongst "normal" kids will make them act "normal". But no, it doesn't work that way. These boys have needs that need to be addressed.
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a jewish woman




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 01 2015, 8:21 am
Squishy wrote:
There are certain schools that everyone in the community knows are weak. Most of the students who "graduate" from the school go to work in the community so their skill level comes as no surprise. They are sought after by the community for their loyalty. Many businesses can't hire outsiders for several reasons and these crippled "graduates" can't work for outsiders. The system is working at the moment.

I am not endorsing not educating students just merely making an observation.

Are you saying that satmar is a weak school or that satmar girls are too weak to earn a legitimate high school diploma?

If the school itself is weak then why do the parents send their kids there? And if the kids are weak then why doesn't the school provide special services I.e. tutors, counseling, etc as needed? Something is very off here and it makes me question the credibility of these "educators" (as in are they even educated and licensed and if not then how do they even get a job at such a school)?
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 01 2015, 8:26 am
a jewish woman wrote:
Are you saying that satmar is a weak school or that satmar girls are too weak to earn a legitimate high school diploma?

If the school itself is weak then why do the parents send their kids there? And if the kids are weak then why doesn't the school provide special services I.e. tutors, counseling, etc as needed? Something is very off here and it makes me question the credibility of these "educators" (as in are they even educated and licensed and if not then how do they even get a job at such a school)?
Whoa!! I feel so dense. I didn't realize that this thread was about Satmar Hashkafa. I thought it was about special ed.
Never - mind embarrassed
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a jewish woman




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 01 2015, 8:33 am
Sanguine wrote:
Whoa!! I feel so dense. I didn't realize that this thread was about Satmar Hashkafa. I thought it was about special ed.
Never - mind embarrassed

I don't think this thread is about satmar but someone asked how it's different from satmar who also don't get high school diplomas which is a legitimate question.
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 01 2015, 8:50 am
a jewish woman wrote:
I don't think this thread is about satmar but someone asked how it's different from satmar who also don't get high school diplomas which is a legitimate question.
I didn't see the word Satmar anywhere so I'm totally lost here.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 01 2015, 9:04 am
a jewish woman wrote:
Are you saying that satmar is a weak school or that satmar girls are too weak to earn a legitimate high school diploma?

If the school itself is weak then why do the parents send their kids there? And if the kids are weak then why doesn't the school provide special services I.e. tutors, counseling, etc as needed? Something is very off here and it makes me question the credibility of these "educators" (as in are they even educated and licensed and if not then how do they even get a job at such a school)?
The girls themselves are only weak because they didn't get the proper foundation throughout elementary school. There is nothing organically wrong with the population. They are being groomed for their role in life. While Satmar ladies aren't educated to secular standards, they are still smart and insightful, etc.

The parents send their kids there because there isn't another choice often and the tuition is affordable. The educators are rarely licensed and educated themselves. They often have recent Satmar graduates teaching the girls. I know of instances where when the teacher was out in HS, a girl from the class would takeover! BTW this is not unusual that educators are not licensed and educated in RW schools. They get jobs because they can mold the students the way the schools want. I applied for a job teaching once and I was told that I was too educated to teach elementary school. I wanted to teach precisely because I was concerned about the lack of teacher training. I didn't have any other agenda.

I applied to a non - chassidish RW school fit admittance for my child and was told that all my daughter needed to know to open her umbrella when it rains so this attitude is not unique to Satmar or chassidish.
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amother


 

Post Sun, Feb 01 2015, 5:33 pm
amother wrote:
If say a satmar girl tries to get a job with you and tells you that she has a high school diploma then would you consider that to be fraudulent as well because she doesn't have a real high school diploma?
Yes, of course I would.

amother wrote:
If satmar girls can get away with it then why can't op' s husbands yeshiva do the same thing?


And if satmar girls can get away with it, why shouldn't inner-city black children get away with it, too? Actually they did for a long time, when "social promotion" was the rule in the public schools, and it did nobody any favors.

What ever happened to good old fashioned midvar sheker tirchak? or are yosher and emes reserved only for one's own kind, and dishonesty perfectly acceptable with respect to everyone else?
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