Why don't you vaccinate? (no bashing)

liora25

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 9:51 am

baschabad wrote:

I'd make a differentiation between vaccinating and assessing a broken wrist, for example.
Vaccines are medicines, requiring studies to be proven safe and effective, produced by manufacturers and sold to medical professionals the same way all medicines are. Ever seen the soaps and notepads at a doctors office, sponsored by pharmaceutical companies?
Doctors may take a short course on how vaccines are supposed to work, but they have not been required to sit poring over the studies that prove it, or had to think critically about what they are being told.
Many doctors have not even read the vaccine inserts, which list possible side effects. It may be a little forthright to do so, but try asking your doctor if they have read it, and why they don't provide it for patients to read before administering vaccines.

Considering all the factors, trusting your doctor on vaccines and trusting them on broken wrists are very different.

Sorry but I strongly disagree, I'm not sure about you but I trust my doctor with a lot more that a broken wrist.

Ear infection, gastro, chest infection, btdt
And if my child c"v got miesels I would run to my doctor expecting her to fix it too? Would those that not vaccinate not do the same if c"v a child of theirs got miesels for example?

I think doctors are just expecting from their patients to take the necessary precautions because unfortunately for some diseases there's not a lot they can do .

Perhaps my doctor feels particularly stringly about this, she watched a child die from phenumococal meningitis , there was nothing she could do, except to urge other parents to vaccinate .

SYA

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 9:56 am

baschabad wrote:

Mumps did go around my neighborhood. 😊 (Brooklyn)
I caught it, I don't even know how. It was extremely uncomfortable having swollen glands and I was pregnant at the time. I think my son (unvaccinated) showed some symptoms but it wasn't serious at all and wasn't diagnosed. I stayed home during the course of it and otherwise took care of myself.

Nobody I spoke to, doctor or midwife seemed panicked about my condition so I just went along with it. I wasn't given the impression that I was about drop dead and in general my experience made me less concerned about these illnesses.

Measles is in most cases, an uncomfortable rash and fever. I read an article about how it wasn't feared years ago when children routinely got it.

As far as I know, the risk of it being deadly is very small. So while I don't wish sickness upon anyone, if it happens, we'll let it run it's course and daven that everything will go well, as with everything else! And most often, it does.

A family member lost a pregnancy due to catching the measles from someone who had not vaccinated.
She has done research and it can be dangerous for the fetus.

southernbubby

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 10:30 am

I would say that I vaccinated myself and my children because I relied on the fact that these vaccines are mass produced and given to the majority of people in society and that most people don't seem to get sick from them, other than the few days of minor aches and pains. Apparently, according to current medical knowledge, there is more danger in taking tylenol or cold medicine or even some vitamins, than in getting vaccinated. It is not like those obscure drugs that few people take or that a few years after it is released, someone realizes that there are frequent serious side effects. There are lots of meds that were pulled from the market and for which were lots of law suits because after they were sold to the public, it was realized that much of the public should not take it. Sometimes this process takes years to realize and now there are no children's cough and cold medicines or teething medicines that carry those dangers. So far, vaccines have a long track record but I am not naive enough to figure that in time, some connection to illnesses could be found and then the whole vaccine protocol will have to be altered.

It sometimes takes considerable time before the world of medicine realizes that there has been something called "mission creep" where the original intention has been bypassed to something else entirely. Take mammograms. They were originally intended to catch aggressive tumors before they spread, however what actually happened was that they picked up lesions that were insignificant but caused numerous people to suffer potentially harmful treatment because no one could take chances once those lesions were identified. Now it is understood that preventative tests must be viewed in perspective and it still will take some time before women with harmless "abnormalities" will simply be monitored rather than undergo surgery, radiation, and medication.

smss

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 10:35 am

southernbubby wrote:

The package inserts that come with Tylenol, cold medicine and vitamins aren't nearly, NEARLY as scary as the ones that come with vaccines.
Just saying.

Raisin

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 10:41 am

baschabad wrote:

I hope your son is fine, but I am sure you are aware (as an educated mother) that mumps can cause future infertility in boys. I don't know...I can see taking the risk on chicken pox or flu since complications from that are extremely rare but some of the illnesses have very very serious side effects, including death. When/where measles is prevelant quite a lot of people die from it. Do you not worry about that? A Healthy diet is great but does it help prevent you catching these illnesses, or developing serious complications from them?

smss

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 11:43 am

Raisin wrote:

don't have time to look it up to make sure now, but I think that's only after puberty.
ETA: ok, yes, it's only after puberty - http://www.webmd.com/infertili.....mumps
the risk of swelling in the testicles is 20-30%, the risk of that actually causing infertility is much lower than that

Last edited by smss on Sun, Feb 01 2015, 11:56 am; edited 1 time in total

gp2.0

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 11:52 am

I wait to vaccinate babies and toddlers. I do staggered vaccinations because they are home with me, and their risk of getting anything is low, especially if the disease is relatively rare in the US like MMR. For example I give the MMR when they are age 3 instead of 12 months. I skip Rotavirus entirely, with my ped's support, because rotavirus is easily treatable in the US if you are not a negligent parent. However I give DTaP asap, not because I am worried about tetanus or diphteria, but I worry about pertussis, which is still very common in the US and life-threatening. I would like to give pertussis on its own but unfortunately that's not an option here. Same with Hib, I give that to infants. What else? Polio I wait until just before they start school, it is a government requirement that I respect, but it is nonexistent in the US so there is no actual worry of them getting it. Hepatitis I push off until they're preteens.

Basically I research every vaccine individually, weigh the risks, and make the choice, never giving more than one combined vaccine in a 6 month period.

eta went amother by mistake

baschabad

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 11:55 am

Before I try to respond to all those who replied to me, I just want to make it clear that no one on this board is going to change my mind about vaccines and I am fully aware that I'm not convincing anyone either. Most of these vaccine conversations are an exercise in futility and great waste of time. I've just returned to this forum from a few year hiatus and already I remember why I left in the first place! So if I don't respond, it's not because I've been overwhelmed by the logic of your arguments but because I remembered that my life and kids come first!

Jeanette

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 12:08 pm

baschabad wrote:

Are you like this only about vaccines or about other areas of life as well?

Is there any area where you're open to changing your mind given sufficient evidence?

southernbubby

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 12:31 pm

smss wrote:

The package inserts that come with Tylenol, cold medicine and vitamins aren't nearly, NEARLY as scary as the ones that come with vaccines.
Just saying.

Tylenol toxicity and vitamin overdoses have caused severe liver damage. The CDC also keeps track of severe vaccine reactions and has info on that. I don't think anyone out there denies that some people have been catastrophically injured by vaccines. I guess that it is a matter of which way to hedge one's bets. I read a reader's digest story of a 12 yr old girl who was brought into the ER because she had become unable to walk. It was determined that she had polio and had never been vaccinated. The father asked the doctor if this could have been prevented. The doctor replied that there had been a vaccine available for many years that most children in society received. The child would now be left permanently paralyzed. I am sure that there are children out there who are even more damaged by vaccines so it is basically where a person wants to gamble. In the case of vaccines, however, a person who makes that decision is not just making it for himself and his family. It could affect others.

I currently take a medication that could be accelerating the process of osteoporosis. It is recommended that I take the medication for 5 years to avoid chas v'sholem breast cancer recurrence or metastasis. I am not sure if I am making myself in more danger by taking the drug or by not taking the drug. There are no answers. The current recommendation is to take it and some women take it for the rest of their lives or until they reach advanced old age. Am I doing the right thing? I am honestly not sure. I had to pick a course of action so I picked the recommended one and am seeking other treatment for the osteoporosis.

amother

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 12:32 pm

I actually don't give a hoot why parents don't vaccinate, it's their right to decide about their own children's welfare. I don't really care what you do to your own children. But what you're doing to the rest of us?

You don't live on your own private island, and your unvaccinated children stand right next to me at the supermarket. I have a compromised immune system, I won't even take public transportation during flu season. Because of people who don't vax, it's sometimes dangerous for me to leave the house. And if I lived in one of the places in the US that was currently a measles' pocket, I'd be stuck inside. Yet you and your kids get to go to Disneyland.

baschabad

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 12:52 pm

Liora25, certainly there is more to medical practice than diagnosing broken wrists but I chose that example because as far as I know there are no two ways about it.
With regard to the other conditions you mentioned, there are in fact differing medical opinions when it comes to diagnosis and treatment. This is where it makes sense to have a doctor that you respect and trust. I personally would not be comfortable with a doctor who prescribes a lot of antibiotics or sees surgery as a first option.
And there do exist doctors who don't give vaccinations and that would be the kind of person I trust!
There may be many reasons for why a doctor chooses to treat according to a certain ideology. That doesn't take away from my point that most doctors have not done their research.

amother

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 12:58 pm

amother wrote:

I'm sorry your have a compromised immune system. Not vaxing my kids is not done to hurt you, but rather to protect them from having compromised immune systems themselves. Yes, that is a possible side effect of vaccines.
You want everyone to vax out of respect to people like yourself but you don't respect our need to protect our kids.

southernbubby

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 1:06 pm

I guess that a person who does not vaccinate must be ready to accept that his child could become seriously ill from a preventable disease and a person who does vaccinate must be willing to accept that there may be affects that are yet unknown.

Each side takes some gamble. People with compromised immune systems take a serious risk by going in public this season because the flu shot was not very effective.

I have never heard that vaccines compromise immune systems. Most little children pick up colds and other communicable infections and it would be interesting to see if children who were not vaccinated had fewer colds and sore throats than children who are.

southernbubby

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 1:08 pm

baschabad wrote:

Jeanette, no bashing! This is not the place to discuss my open-mindedness nor yours, for that matter.

I like the way you said that baschabad. It was polite and too the point and you did not bash in return. This site would be so much more enjoyable if we all answered each other as you answered Jeanette. Kol ha'kavod, yesher koach, and Moshiach now!

amother

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 1:10 pm

amother wrote:

Please, you're not sorry. Your actions might not be specifically to hurt me, but they do.

You choose not to believe real science or real statistics--and I've yet to see any report/article that supports your claims. You can post links to wackadoo websites, but not real websites.

I know I can't convince you otherwise, statistics tell me that as well. So why do I bother? Because if one of you lunatics gives me whooping cough, I could die. And if I die and my family knows exactly who infected me, they'll be sued more quickly than I can type this post. Of course, if you live on your own island you won't be able to infect me.

I really wonder what it's going to take for anti-vaxxers to change their tune, a polio epidemic? Or do you think your organic flour will save your child from polio?

Frumdoc

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 1:25 pm

smss wrote:

The package inserts that come with Tylenol, cold medicine and vitamins aren't nearly, NEARLY as scary as the ones that come with vaccines.
Just saying.

And yet I see hundreds of people per year who have accidentally or deliberately taken too much tylenol and ended up with liver or kidney damage, enough to need transplant in some cases. Maybe 2 or 3 per week.

But I have never seen anyone with a vaccine reaction. Not saying they don't exist, sure they do, but the risk /likelihood/ incidence is far lower than that of tylenol toxicity in real life, but no one gets hysterical/ there is no anti tylenol industry like there is an anti vaccination industry (making plenty of money on vitamin cures/ other so called "natural remedies".

I wonder if anyone has investigated the funding and finances of the anti vaccination industry?

Jeanette

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 1:27 pm

baschabad wrote:

Jeanette, no bashing! This is not the place to discuss my open-mindedness nor yours, for that matter.

I think it's relevant to the discussion of trying to understand the motivation of people who don't vax.

If it was about, say, keeping shabbos, I could totally understand saying, nothing will convince me not to keep shabbos. It's a matter of faith

But vaxxing isn't a matter of faith, it's a medical decision that involves careful consideration of the pros and cons of each side. Even if at this time you're strongly convinced that the evidence favors non-vaxxing (to the point that it's not even worth discussing) surely you must be open to possibly changing your mind if/when exposed to more or better evidence that vaccines are a) safe and b) effective.