Hitting/kicking sprees! What consequences? Other advice?

amother

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 6:52 pm

granolamom wrote:

just to clarify, I didnt mean that kicking and hitting are to be accepted forms of communication. I meant that you dont have to 'make it stop' directly but that by addressing underlying issues, it will stop on its own as he realizes he can communicate more effectively with his words or as his underlying needs (say, for power and control) are being met more appropriately.

BTW I have done extensive teaching on ways to communicate and DC knows how to express oneself very well. When in the right mood and prompted, they can make a full reversal from what is about to be a tantrum, to using respectful words to explain what they want/need/are upset with. This is not a communication breakdown, it's a control/power struggle. Or something.

About "making it stop" this is simply because I cannot go on being a punching bag. I'm going to be beaten black and blue if I don't make it stop. Leaving the scene so far has not helped. DC follows. DC is capable of opening our inside door locks. I don't even really have a place that's 100% safe for a child in this kind of out of control mood. My home is generally pretty safe but if a kid is being wild and destructive they need supervision, anything can become a danger unless you have a padded cell. So I'm not sure how it is that I don't need to make it stop! What's the alternative - let DC continue?!

The worst part is that while the solution, whatever it is, probably requires a very levelheaded approach, as this continues my frustration level is only rising and it is harder and harder to control myself, let alone DC. I KNOW I need to, I am just running out of resources and energy and don't know how to go on! I definitely expressed more anger than I should have in today's episode. I am just so burnt out because this is like the 5th day in a row of this and I can't take it anymore especially without any strategy of what to do!

Iymnok

Tue, Jan 27 2015, 3:20 am

What you you're describing sounds like an escalation, not a tantrum. He needs to learn how to calm himself down himself. As soon as he starts, hug him tight pinning his arms down softly chant "I'm helping you help yourself" he will scream that you're hurting him, he can't breathe... Keep at it. Eventually he'll quiet down and go limp. Hug him for 1/3 the time it took to get limp. It may take anywhere from 2-45 minutes. Can be longer worth really strong willed kids. He will feel safe despite his protests.
Is he sensory?
(This is a massive summary, just the basic actions, but very effective)

granolamom

Tue, Jan 27 2015, 9:21 am

its very concerning to me that in only five days your dc's personality has done a 180
and in those 5 days your toddler has caught the bug too.
perhaps this is related to his illness. or perhaps he wasnt so perfect before.

bedtime routines are notorious for stopping to work soon after they are perfected. kids are notorious for outgrowing our techniques as soon as we perfect them.

this might be the time to find a parenting course or mentor or whatever. or maybe a few quick sessions with a therapist for YOU to learn how to stay level headed.

I hear that you give your dc plenty of love and attention. I think this sounds like a play for more control and power, which is a different need. as far as communication, that's what I'm talking about. most kids do not know how to ask for power and control. your example of the todldler and the shoes is a request for power. given the choice of which shoe still lets him know that you insist he put on his shoes. (which you can do, I"m just saying its not giving the power he's asking for).

maybe the older dc needs to come up with a new bedtime routine of his own design. yes, there should be follow through and consequences, but I'd leave them as natural as possible.

amother

Tue, Jan 27 2015, 12:40 pm

I've been following this thread for a while because I have a child who has had behavior remarkably similar to this and I really thought I was the only one....my heart is with you -- when this child was at it, it was so absolutely demoralizing and I felt like a complete failure. DC had also been complaining about fatigue and random leg pain, which I usually would attribute to growing pains, but once it went on too long, I decided it was worth it to ask a doctor to take a blood test for strep markers (I wasn't sure exactly how to explain it to the doctors here - I'm in Israel - but I figured it was worth a try), and luckily the pediatrician agreed to order a blood test.

Well, the strep markers (anti-strep-something) were actually quite elevated - and my child was never even sick - but the doctor prescribed an antibiotic for I think it was 3 weeks to start, and then we did a retest and followed that with another month of antibiotics since the levels were lower but not gone yet. We saw a slow improvement in frequency and intensity of outbursts, b'H. (This child is incredibly sweet and good-natured at times but is also explosive by nature, funny as it may sound, but the intensity of these outbursts and the way DC really seemed to be out of control were what prompted me to go ahead with the medical testing.)

Iymnok wrote:

^This. DC would yell that it was hurting and sometimes would try to bite or squirm out, but if I would persist (I'm holding you because you are not allowed to hurt, I will not let you hurt me or anyone else, etc., etc) until the stage where DC would relax, eventually the tears would come (and I say that as a good thing - it was a release of sorts for the child) and then the tension would wash out of DC and I would literally see the sense coming back into my child.

Wow, that was a long post. Bottom line - you are NOT alone, and I think it is worth it to take your dc to a pediatrician.

Hug

amother

Tue, Feb 03 2015, 7:26 pm

OP here. Just wanted to update.
BH BH it seems I was right about the strep triggering this, because a little more than halfway through the 10 days of medicine all of a sudden DC turned back into a sweet, charming, agreeable child, even more than before. Now it's about a week later and things are back to normal - still testing and a little whiny, no more "dream child" who was just so happy to be better or whatever that they'd do anything, but NORMAL - not out of control lashing out only escalating non-responsive craziness.

Until then, I don't know, it seems the turning point was somewhere around my breaking point so we just kind of made it. The same night after reading responses from this thread I looked up the phone number of that Eitzah hotline and called them. I realized after ending the call that I never did get a good idea of how to respond in the moment of hitting/kicking/etc, but they did give some valuable advice on how to keep myself calm (which I don't even remember specifically enough to share; it was more of an internal thing - I thought I just couldn't anymore but after a good talking-to I was kind of "reset") and also some more practical understanding of how to avoid power struggles without giving up all your authority. The main gist was that for the time being, while in a crisis mode, I should try to let things go as much as possible - but consciously, showing DC that I'm GIVING permission to let things go rather than letting them feel that they won. Even things that I generally feel strongly about, like brushing teeth, she said anything that isn't critical and urgent just let it go because we have to get back to a normal place where we aren't locked into a permanent power struggle. This was wise and helpful! Even though the tide turned naturally of its own cause by now, I'm still using this basic idea while gradually moving back towards a more ideal (to me) structure. I think it's helping!

FranticFrummie

Tue, Feb 03 2015, 7:49 pm

OP, thank you for the update. I'm so glad that things are working out better for you now!

It really worries me when I read in "natural parenting" how many people tend to think that strep will just "go away on it's own", when it can do so much damage!

Strep is no joke, I can tell you. I am not one for drastic medical measures, but when it comes to recurring strep I am a huge fan of getting the child's tonsils and adenoids out as soon as possible.

DD had drug resistant strep that was nested deep in her tonsils, and the second she came off the antibiotics it would come right back. After a year and a half of strep, and then surgery, it was like getting a whole new child, almost overnight. No more relapses! Very Happy

heidi

Tue, Feb 03 2015, 8:25 pm

I can't believe I just saw this thread now. I have been going through this with dc, age 4 also. In his case, not a tantrum, more of a deliberate well aimed hit or kick when we have displeased his majesty. He is my youngest of several and I have never ever ever encountered this kind of behavior. He is just getting over the flu-- so hoping that's what triggered the behavior-- based on all your accounts. What seems to work when this happens is picking him up to my eye level and looking him in the eye and telling him, "we never never hit our mommy."
Any more tips would be greatly appreciated.

amother

Tue, Feb 03 2015, 8:27 pm

Frenchfry, from what I understand (this was the first thing that came to my mind too so I looked it up) PANDAS is associated specifically with tics and OCD, and is when it persists beyond the original infection. Here B"H the behavior cleared up once the antibiotics kicked in, so no reason to go deeper than that. Only to pray harder that this doesn't happen too often...

FranticFrummie, I don't think I need to rip out her tonsils after just one strep episode, just hoping it's gone now and doesn't recur. If it becomes a thing then I guess we'll have to figure it out. If you don't have tonsils, does the strep just take up residence deeper in your body and then get harder to find? Because strep throat is at least a cinch to diagnose...

FranticFrummie

Tue, Feb 03 2015, 11:20 pm

amother wrote:

FranticFrummie, I don't think I need to rip out her tonsils after just one strep episode, just hoping it's gone now and doesn't recur. If it becomes a thing then I guess we'll have to figure it out. If you don't have tonsils, does the strep just take up residence deeper in your body and then get harder to find? Because strep throat is at least a cinch to diagnose...

DD went to a top ENT surgeon at Children's Hospital. He won't even look at a case until it's been 4 bouts of strep in one year. They don't just do this surgery automatically on all kids, they way they did when I was little. DD had non stop strep for a year and a half. When the doc took a look in her throat he made this face Surprised

and said "WHOA! Those are some of the most inflamed tonsils I've seen in YEARS! How does she even sleep?"

So, yeah. It was time to get it done. Like I said before, I certainly don't rush to throw kids under the knife. Just keep it in mind if the strep keeps coming back, or is becoming drug resistant. Strep specifically loves to hide in tonsils, so no, it won't "go deeper". If you have other questions, I'm sure your ENT can give you all the info you need to make an informed decision.

BTW, I've had my tonsils out, and DD kept passing the strep to me anyway. Having the surgery didn't stop me from getting it. The thing is, once she got her tonsils out, she quit getting strep, which means that I never got strep again after that. (B'H!!!)

I'd hardly call getting the surgery "ripped out". DD wouldn't take the pain meds because she would have to swallow them, but she had no problem with eating corn chips the next morning. I called the doctor to see if I should insist on soft foods, and he said they don't worry about that anymore, and she's allowed to eat whatever she wants. I also had to nearly sit on her to make her rest, because the doctor said for her not to go out and play for the next 24 hours. But - all of her friends were outside, and she wanted to run around!