Consideration with Purim Costumes and MM

greenfire

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 8:35 pm

marina wrote:

Ok, so hippies are fair game? You don't think some hippies would be insulted?

I won't be insulted ... just bring me the brownies Whistling

saw50st8

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 11:00 pm

Barbara, I was just in Mexico. Many Mexicans were dressed in traditional Mexican clothing.

skirtznsox

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 11:11 pm

And many Mexican-Americans, who are the ones that'd see any of us in America, do not.

DrMom

Fri, Feb 20 2015, 2:11 am

skirtznsox wrote:

I'm going to try to explain. If you have further questions, feel free to PM me. I'm now stepping outside of the campaign, but professionally, some of what I do is working with conversations around race and racial diversity, and inter-religious dialogue, so hopefully I can help. I'm not saying any of what I'm saying from a purely intellectualized, rhetorical place. It's a common-sense-that's-not-so-common (until you have these conversations regularly with an open mind, with all sides and opinions) place, that Hashem has blessed me to be able to be a part of many many times in my life before. On Purim with the sari, you were not trying to go as an Indian and say that just wearing a sari made it authentic. On Purim, you were being you but wearing something you might normally not, as an appreciation and an opportunity to wear something beautiful, that someone of the culture had specifically given you for that purpose. A beautiful outfit, rather than a caricature. That's what is different.

It would stink for people to throw the baby out with the bathwater. However, that's preferable to how things are now. So that hopefully you won't have to be one of those people, and you can help further this as a kiddush Hashem during Purim and beyond, I'll try to explain. Dressing up as a specific historical figure, as they actually were, as an individual person, after informing yourself about the actual person, not just the boiled down version (without using blackface just because it really has its own history), is a respectful and honoring costume. Dressing up as a caricature of a specific historical figure is not.

The everyday person may not be able to differentiate between Pocohontas and any native american woman. That's part of how this is dangerous. But if you've done your research, as has been mentioned in other people's posts, she's pretty special in her personal attire. Also, you would say you were dressed as Pocohantas, not as a Native American woman. Even if you went generic (which I wouldn't suggest until you really, really get what this is about, and even then probably not, and I wouldn't do it personally because it could still be hurtful to people's lives and also their emotions), you'd then say "I'm going as a traditional 1800s Cherokee woman" or whatever it is, rather than as a Native American, because most Native Americans today wear what most Americans wear today.

If someone who is of the culture you are dressing up as, assuming it's not your culture as well, who happens to also be Jewish, walked into your shul to hear the megillah, would they recognize how you're dressed as an accurate and respectful depiction of their current (or historical, if that's what you're intending and you know you're intending that) cultural practices and ways of life? Or could they be sitting there uncomfortably the whole time? If someone not Jewish but of the culture saw what you/your child was wearing, would they think that it was beautiful and respectful, or just for fun with no effort taken to actually get to know the real people behind the culture? Would it appear that you have relationships with actual people of the culture and have some involvement with it outside of tv/movies/books/media/the internet? If they walked up to you and, despite all of the effort you made in being respectful, said that they were offended, would you listen with an open heart and ask them, non-defensively, what was offensive about it and how you could do better next time?

Respectful, kiddush Hashem cultural costumes take a lot of research, and if part of your reason why they should be just allowed to be common is because they're easy to throw on and not have to change too much, then the fact that they're thrown on with ease and no care for the actual people involved is why they are a problem so it's purpose defeating.

sorry if it's tl;dr but hopefully anybody who actually wants to learn got something out of it. And any of you with real questions that you'd rather not post here can either pm me for overall conversation about it or contact the SJS itself if you have questions about the campaign.

Are you suggesting that everyone must research the historical background of every specific person and every specific culture they depict in their Purim costume in order to qualify as being non-offensive?

- How would you quantify the level of research required?

- Would looking at a wikipedia page be sufficient, or would someone need to read a biography, or write a master's thesis on the topic?

- Do you expect the 7-year-old who intends to wear the costume to conduct this research or do the parents need to do this?

- Who decides when the costume-wearer is sufficiently educated to qualify for the privilege of wearing the costume?

- Why does someone need to create an uber-authentic replica of someone's exact clothing in order to dress like someone? Don't mothers have enough work to do before Purim without worrying whether their daughter's Scarlett O'Hara costume contains the right kind of petticoats, or whether their son's ninja costume is authentic (Wikipedia: "While the image of a ninja clad in black garb (shinobi shōzoku) is prevalent in popular media, there is no written evidence for such a costume. Instead, it was much more common for the ninja to be disguised as civilians)?

While I understand your motivations come from a positive place (a desire to educate and avoid offending), this is elitist, PC thinking run amok.

imasoftov

Fri, Feb 20 2015, 5:51 am

marina wrote:

Ok, so hippies are fair game? You don't think some hippies would be insulted?

We're cool with that, man.

Raisin

Fri, Feb 20 2015, 6:03 am

skirtznsox wrote:

And many Mexican-Americans, who are the ones that'd see any of us in America, do not.

Why should they? Presumably they have assimilated somewhat into american culture.

BTW it does not bother me all that much not to dress up as a Mexican or Chinese or Welsh person. (welsh people have a bit of an inferiority complex, I wouldn't want to insult them you know)

I would just have thought that most groups would be proud when people what to dress up in their costume. I was and am surprised to learn that is not so. I get a kick when someone dresses as a rabbi or puts on Fiddler on the Roof, as long as it comes from a nice place. If it was a group of neo nazis dressing as Chassidim, yeah, that would be unpleasant since they are likely doing it to be hurtful. But I wouldn't ascribe sinister motives to regular people.

skirtznsox

Fri, Feb 20 2015, 8:28 am

DrMom wrote:

I'm, in fact, not suggesting that people do any of this. I'm suggesting that people find costumes that aren't other people's culture. However, if people are going to have the entitled thinking that says they can dress up however they want, because that is in fact entitled, then it is neither elitist nor PC to suggest that they (of any age, and 7 is most certainly old enough, maybe not 4) do sufficient research to be able to understand and respect the actual human (s) and humanity behind the identity they're usurping for a day of fun. It's not being elitist nor PC to say that while parents are often already busy, their busy -ness is not an excuse for denigrating a culture or furthering a damaging stereotype, even if it's unintentional. The amount of research is qualitative not quantitative in its requirement. Respect, understanding, and empathy are the keys here. And if you're too busy to do that, dress up in pajamas, or the wizard of oz, or mordechai and Esther, or as vegetables.

Your questions show a real lack of ability to empathize with the people who don't function AND look like you. I totally empathize with the overworked and no - time - left nature of getting costumes done. Therefore, I'll leave appropriating other people out of my costume choices!

Eta: don't people from constantly stereotyped cultures have enough to worry about without thinking entitled Jews, who are already supposed to be a light unto the nations but with this type of thinking are as bad as the restofthem, think it's ok to help stereotypes take and keep root? Don't people who are (shock) Jewish and members of these stereotyped cultures have enough toworry about without walking into a shul and seeing their identity boiled down to the very image they fight when going to get a job, or just walk down the street?

saw50st8

Fri, Feb 20 2015, 9:06 am

skirtznsox wrote:

And many Mexican-Americans, who are the ones that'd see any of us in America, do not.

Just because someone chooses not to wear it, doesn't make it offensive. I don't wear chassidic garb but wouldn't be offended by non-Jews being "chasidim" for Halloween. I have chasidic roots, so I think it's a fair comparison.

chatouli

Fri, Feb 20 2015, 9:23 am

Reading through this thread is the first time I've been relieved that my kids insisted upon dressing up as Batman* and not something more interesting. So, thanks for that.

*apologies in advance to any real bat men/women out there.

imasoftov

Fri, Feb 20 2015, 9:31 am

chatouli wrote:

PinkFridge

Fri, Feb 20 2015, 10:01 am

I don't know if I should post as I've been having some computer access problems and may continue to.
But since I may indirectly be responsible for this thread, I will do so anyway.
First of all, we've said all this already, though there will always be new twists, some of them amusing. (Thanks for the Batperson sensitivity awareness raising, Chatouli!)
My thread had a different approach entirely, and as I said there, I will accept the injunction to lighten up.
My thread got started because I had trouble appreciating how or why people would want to dress up as ancient cultures that at least to me, made me think of some of the more difficult times in our people's history, e.g. ancient Egyptians or Greeks. I wonder if any of the people who are very militant here about certain ethnic costumes (and I should say, to a great extent rightfully so) hear my point.

chatouli

Fri, Feb 20 2015, 12:52 pm

imasoftov wrote:

Whoa. Meta.

Simple1

Fri, Feb 20 2015, 1:03 pm

Can I give another PSA here? If you do see frum people dressed in cultural costumes - realize that they are not trying to be offensive. Many have no access to this forum and will not see your posts and have no idea about these issues -- they're just buying costumes that they see being sold.

marina

Fri, Feb 20 2015, 2:53 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

well, that would exclude quite a few nationalities.

DrMom

Sat, Feb 21 2015, 3:41 pm

skirtznsox wrote:

Your questions show a real lack of ability to empathize with the people who don't function AND look like you. I totally empathize with the overworked and no - time - left nature of getting costumes done. Therefore, I'll leave appropriating other people out of my costume choices!

You have no idea what I function or look like. FYI, I am half Mexican. Not that I should have to whip out minority creds to express the opinion that your ideas are condescending and impractical.

And FWIW, it seems to me that *you* are the one who thinks everyone needs to think exactly like you do... *I* am not the one assigning people homework in order to assure that they are sufficiently "enlightened" to wear their own Purim costumes!

If I don't comply with your certification requirements I should dress up as vegetables or wear pajamas? Really?

Dandelion1

Sat, Feb 21 2015, 9:29 pm

skirtznsox wrote:

You believe that dressing in another culture's traditional garb is "elitist and entitled," and that such groups are highly offended by this. So how does it change matters in any way, if the elitist and entitled costume wearers read up on said culture beforehand?

The problem with political correctness running amok, as someone aptly described it, is that it in and of itself becomes condescending and paternalistic. The idea that a historically subjugated group will find it heartwarming that the parents of a bunch of rich white American kids "researched their culture" and therefore have "earned" the right to dress up like them is more offensive than the supposedly objectionable costume wearing itself.

PinkFridge

Sat, Feb 21 2015, 9:36 pm

marina wrote:

well, that would exclude quite a few nationalities.

Good point. I shall chill.
(And will try not to even smile next time I see the Far Side Cossackountants cartoon. Like all people, I'm not fully consistent.)

My point was that my POV was not the same as this, and numerous other threads. Not that I don't appreciate it, but that was not why I revisited the discussion.