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Forum -> Household Management -> Kosher Kitchen
39 Inches for a sink - what are my options?



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starch




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 28 2015, 6:59 pm
I'm redoing my kitchen and I have 10'9" wall on which I plan to put an oven (30"), a dishwasher (24"), sink(s) and a corner cabinet (3'). This leaves me with 39" for the sink area.

(I will be continuing the L but for the purpose of my question that part is unnecessary. I can't put dishwasher or sink on the other wall and I rather not move the oven.)

Has anyone worked with this kind of space to put in 2 sinks? What size sinks would I be able to put in if I do undermount or overmount? How about if I do 2 separate sinks instead of 1 double sink?

TIA!
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mommyla




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 28 2015, 7:08 pm
39" isn't much for two separate sinks, especially because you'll want a couple of inches in between them. Your options are either two small sinks or a larger double sink, which is probably a better bet for you. You can even get a triple sink with a small prep bowl in between if you want to separate the two sides further.
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starch




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 28 2015, 7:53 pm
Thanks for your response, mommyla. I'm only trying to figure out my options both ways, with 2 separate sinks as well as 1 double sink, until I know which way dh wants kashrus-wise. I know 2 separate sinks will mean each one will be smaller, but I have to work with the space I have. I'm trying to find out how small they'd be if they are separate vs. together.

Also, if I put in granite countertops, I'd prefer undermount sinks but will they be much smaller bowls that way? How much smaller? I don't mind if the milchig sink is the same size or slightly smaller than the fleishig sink.

Thanks.
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mfb




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 28 2015, 7:56 pm
Would u consider a sink in the corner?
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mommyla




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 28 2015, 8:20 pm
Undermount sinks are so much better, and they're also deeper (figure about an inch deeper than a drop-in of the same depth) because of the extra inch of counter. I've had both and there is no comparison. Sizewise there is no difference between undermount and drop-in.

You'll get a good few inches more with a double sink because the divider will be smaller. If you do two undermount sinks, for example, there will have to be a few inches between to prevent overlap of the sink edge itself (this goes for drop-ins too). You can avoid that with a double sink that has a slim divider. If you'd prefer a thicker divider for kashrus comfort, you can find those too.
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Rubber Ducky




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 28 2015, 8:48 pm
Using the 39", you could do 2 undermount basins each about 15" wide (or about 17" and 13") with about 6" space in between. Besides kashrus, with granite counters and single basins you'll want at least a 4" strip of granite between the sinks so the granite won't crack.

Another possibility would be to not have a corner cabinet Then you do something like:

oven-30 • DW-24 • 2 undermount basins each about 22" wide and about 5" between the basins (run 1 basin to the corner) • corner 24

OR

oven-30 • DW-24 • Triple sink-48 • dead space/corner 27

You haven't told us what's going on in the "L" so I don't know whether this kind of approach would be a good idea. But you get good-size sinks.
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starch




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 28 2015, 9:00 pm
Rubber Ducky wrote:
Using the 39", you could do 2 undermount basins each about 15" wide (or about 17" and 13") with about 6" space in between. Besides kashrus, with granite counters and single basins you'll want at least a 4" strip of granite between the sinks so the granite won't crack.

Another possibility would be to not have a corner cabinet Then you do something like:

oven-30 • DW-24 • 2 undermount basins each about 22" wide and about 5" between the basins (run 1 basin to the corner) • corner 24

OR

oven-30 • DW-24 • Triple sink-48 • dead space/corner 27

You haven't told us what's going on in the "L" so I don't know whether this kind of approach would be a good idea. But you get good-size sinks.


When you say corner 24 or corner 27, do you mean a regular cabinet door with the depth extending into the corner?

The rest of the L is 2 sets of 3 or 4 drawers (27 & 30 inch) ending with refrigerator. I was told by a contractor that moving DW or sink to the other wall would be complicated. To me that means extra cost which I want to avoid.

If I decide to put in a double sink, undermount, how big could each basin be, and is it possible to put up a divider between the two sinks extending a couple of inches above counter height?
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Rubber Ducky




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Feb 28 2015, 9:37 pm
When you say corner 24 or corner 27, do you mean a regular cabinet door with the depth extending into the corner?
From what I understand from your posts, the 24 or 27" would be lost space as far as base cabinets because you wouldn't be able to access them from the front — they may possibly be accessible from the back if they're on an interior wall (or on a peninsula).

The rest of the L is 2 sets of 3 or 4 drawers (27 & 30 inch) ending with refrigerator. I was told by a contractor that moving DW or sink to the other wall would be complicated. To me that means extra cost which I want to avoid.
You need to assess the cost difference between buying a pricey customized sink vs. the cost of plumbing for a second, standard-size sink in a better location (like on the "L" if there's not another counter run you haven't mentioned.). If the costs are at all close, please seriously consider going for the better layout. Where's the stove? Or is your "oven" actually a stove?

If I decide to put in a double sink, undermount, how big could each basin be, and is it possible to put up a divider between the two sinks extending a couple of inches above counter height?
16" for a double sink rated for a 39" cabinet: http://www.elkay.com/sinks/eluh361710
But with creative sink mounting, you can sometimes wedge in a larger sink.
A stainless divider can be welded on. $$$
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starch




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 01 2015, 4:52 am
When you say corner 24 or corner 27, do you mean a regular cabinet door with the depth extending into the corner?
From what I understand from your posts, the 24 or 27" would be lost space as far as base cabinets because you wouldn't be able to access them from the front — they may possibly be accessible from the back if they're on an interior wall (or on a peninsula).
It would be lost space (which I don't want in this small kitchen) since it is in the corner of the kitchen against the outside wall and a bathroom wall.

The rest of the L is 2 sets of 3 or 4 drawers (27 & 30 inch) ending with refrigerator. I was told by a contractor that moving DW or sink to the other wall would be complicated. To me that means extra cost which I want to avoid.
You need to assess the cost difference between buying a pricey customized sink vs. the cost of plumbing for a second, standard-size sink in a better location (like on the "L" if there's not another counter run you haven't mentioned.). If the costs are at all close, please seriously consider going for the better layout. Where's the stove?
This L (on the wall to the right and straight ahead) is the only bit of counter space. As far as cabinets, I plan on putting 4' of floor to ceiling pantry 12" depth along the wall where you walk in to the kitchen. I need the wall on the left for eating area.
The stove is part of the oven, first thing on the right wall.

If I decide to put in a double sink, undermount, how big could each basin be, and is it possible to put up a divider between the two sinks extending a couple of inches above counter height?
16" for a sink rated for a 39" cabinet: http://www.elkay.com/sinks/eluh361710
But with creative sink mounting, you can sometimes wedge in a larger sink.
A stainless divider can be welded on. $$$

I was thinking about a divider matching the countertop, from a piece of granite. I'm not sure if it can be cut to size to extend about 4" above the counter and have an extra inch on the bottom at the opening for the sink to fill that 1" gap between counter height and undermount sink height. (Does this make sense?)
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 01 2015, 5:43 am
you should opt for the double sinks because you'll get more washing space ... ask for the granite remnant they cut out the hole for the sink & have it cut to size ... use that as a top board to cover the sink not in use

I have seen people put a 4" counter upward as a divider in between 2 small sinks ... not sure how much it helps with splashing

once I made a sink cover from a 'blech' for the side of the sink not in use
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Rubber Ducky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 01 2015, 6:10 am
Using granite as a sink divider can work. Using it as a sink cover will not, because granite weighs about 50 pounds per square foot. A stainless steel cookie sheet can be used as a sink cover.

I drew your layout (as I understand it) in my 3D program (sorry, no time to post it now we a have a shiur here in a few minutes) and have 2 questions/comments:
1) Is there a support to the left of the dishwasher between the dishwasher and the stove? Granite is very heavy.
2) That area for most people would be the prime prep area, but at 24"? wide it's too small for prep, and especially too small for both prep and drying dishes. What if you moved the double sink to the right — yes, give up the corner base — to get 2 usable prep areas? And your drawer bases on the "L" will get bigger.
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 01 2015, 7:20 am
Rubber Ducky wrote:
Using granite as a sink divider can work. Using it as a sink cover will not, because granite weighs about 50 pounds per square foot. A stainless steel cookie sheet can be used as a sink cover.


I guess nobody has time to exercise while washing dishes ... I didn't think that through
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starch




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 01 2015, 7:26 am
I drew your layout (as I understand it) in my 3D program (sorry, no time to post it now we a have a shiur here in a few minutes) and have 2 questions/comments:
1) Is there a support to the left of the dishwasher between the dishwasher and the stove? Granite is very heavy.

I think my kitchen is mirror image of what you have but there is nothing between the stove and dishwasher. Is this a problem?
That area for most people would be the prime prep area, but at 24"? wide it's too small for prep, and especially too small for both prep and drying dishes. What if you moved the double sink to the right — yes, give up the corner base — to get 2 usable prep areas? And your drawer bases on the "L" will get bigger.
For my needs I think 24" for fleishigs is sufficient - just chicken/meat... Most things prepared are parve. I don't have much cabinet space so not sure I want to give up full corner cabinet. There is a window on the wall straight ahead above the drawers (would have to look up exact dimensions/placement).
The way I have it laid out right now the stove/range is against a wall. is this a safety concern? Is there a code requirement about this in NY?
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Rubber Ducky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 01 2015, 8:38 am
Briefly because I have some paying work to do (and yes, I do kitchen layout and space planning professionally):

...I think my kitchen is mirror image of what you have but there is nothing between the stove and dishwasher. Is this a problem?
200 pounds of granite counter without support resting on your dishwasher is a very bad idea. You'll need to give up about 1.5 inches for a strong support panel between the stove and the DW.

That area for most people would be the prime prep area, but at 24"? wide it's too small for prep, and especially too small for both prep and drying dishes. What if you moved the double sink to the right — yes, give up the corner base — to get 2 usable prep areas? And your drawer bases on the "L" will get bigger.
For my needs I think 24" for fleishigs is sufficient - just chicken/meat... Most things prepared are parve. I don't have much cabinet space so not sure I want to give up full corner cabinet. There is a window on the wall straight ahead above the drawers (would have to look up exact dimensions/placement).
OK, but a corner cabinet holds less than you think.

The way I have it laid out right now the stove/range is against a wall. is this a safety concern? Is there a code requirement about this in NY?
I don't know code in New York (I'm in Maryland). Safety concern? Yes. A steel panel between the area above the stove and the adjacent wall will minimize fire hazard.
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starch




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 01 2015, 11:11 am
Thank you for all your help!!

While trying to reshuffle things, I am thinking about a double corner sink such as this.

Any opinion?
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Rubber Ducky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 01 2015, 12:15 pm
Better. That will give you decent counter space on both sides of the sinks. Try mocking it up with cardboard cutouts to represent the sink basins and see how it feels.
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