Was Esther together with Achashverosh?

black sheep

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 11:54 am

gittelchana wrote:

She was raped by him. She had no choice in the matter. Sad

She did not DO anything.

well that is according to some meforshim. others say that she did what needed to be done to save the jewish people. that when mordechai said, "you think you will be saved while the jews are destroyed," he was referring to her purity, that it would be wrong to preserve her purity at the expense of the jewish nation's survival. it is childish to think the only possible explanation is to find a way to prove she didn't sin.

in other words, she did the right thing by seducing the king, she saved the jews.

pause

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:02 pm

black sheep wrote:

In order to seduce him, she needn't have become his wife. A king kept many concubines. In addition, he may not have made her queen, even if she was his wife. It is childish to think that just because he liked her, he made her into his queen. That's not how royal marriages worked in those days.

Fox

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:07 pm

pause wrote:

It is childish to think that just because he liked her, he made her into his queen. That's not how royal marriages worked in those days.

I don't have a source, but I learned in a class long ago that part of the neis was that Achashverosh genuinely loved Esther despite the fact that marriages and concubines generally had more to do with business than affection.

pause

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:09 pm

Fox wrote:

Amazing, isn't it? Because if not for that fact, chances are she wouldn't have gotten her wishes fulfilled.

black sheep

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:20 pm

it is never childish to believe something that actually happened. it clearly states in the megilla that achashveirosh loved her, and that he married her. beyond the text and historical facts, there is much room for interpretation, but the basic text doesn't veer from it's "pshat" (simple explanation.)

asmileaday

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:25 pm

Everyone is referring to Esther as being beautiful. Am I the only one that learned that her real name was Hadasah originating from the word Hadas which is a green leaf. Which implies that she had a green complexion and was not pretty at all. And that made it an even bigger nes that she was chosen.

etky

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:27 pm

greenfire wrote:

let's celebrate esther getting raped ...

& why on earth was she thrown under the bus to save the rest of the jews including her uncle/dad/cousin

I don't think it's accurate to claim that Esther was a victim.
Yes, she was forced into a difficult situation that demanded a measure of personal sacrifice on her part. However, once she confronts the fact that she has a role to play in the salvation of her people, her character does a complete and dramatic about-face (reversal is after all the theme of this holiday).Whereas until then she was passive,- the rest of the narrative is an account of her courageous and determined actions (including the enshrinement of Purim and its observances as a national holiday).Esther grows tremendously throughout the story. In this respect the Esther story recalls the story of Joseph in Egypt. There are many parallels if you think about it. Ultimately, both transition from victimhood into powerful figures who use their lofty positions in the gentile court to benefit the Jewish people.
By the end of the Megilla Esther has travelled well beyond victimhood. Yes, it's sad that she couldn't have a normal Jewish family life. But how many Jewish women are commemorated in the way that she is.....

pause

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:31 pm

black sheep wrote:

I'm not denying the facts of the megilla. Today's days we think that if man loves a woman, the two of them will marry. It's a no-brainer. Love leads to marriage, right?

So what I'm saying is that in those days it did not need to be this way. As the king, Achashverosh had various options: He could have loved her and kept her as a mistress. He could have loved her, married her and kept her as his wife without giving her the crown. And he could have not loved her and made her queen anyway.

And just because he married her and gave her the crown, doesn't *have* to be that he loved her. The fact that he did should be viewed as a separate aspect. He loved her AND he married her. Not he loved her so her married her , nor he married her so he must have loved her.

gp2.0

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:34 pm

asmileaday wrote:

What is a green complexion??? shock

Is that a thing? Lol.

I don't get why all the embellishments - like, clearly Vashti didn't actually grow a tail overnight, so why even say that?

black sheep

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:34 pm

asmileaday wrote:

another medrash. I learned it too. I am currently in the process of reviewing many of the "facts" that I learned and understanding which are medrash and which are actual facts. fascinating journey.

Chayalle

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:39 pm

Doesn't it say straight out in the megillah "V'hanaarah Y'fas Toar V'tovas Mareh"

Now what does that mean? It does not sound like she was ugly...and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Perhaps she was beautiful, even with her green appearance, whatever that means.

It reminds me of the time I was at a frum eye-doctor...and he said he wishes he knew what "V'eynei Leah Rakos" means.

Chayalle

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:40 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

What is a green complexion??? shock

Is that a thing? Lol.

I don't get why all the embellishments - like, clearly Vashti didn't actually grow a tail overnight, so why even say that?

still remember the first time I read Harry Potter...when dudley gets his tail....wondering if JKR used this as her source (for her imagination, of course....)

etky

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:41 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

What is a green complexion??? shock

Is that a thing? Lol.

I don't get why all the embellishments - like, clearly Vashti didn't actually grow a tail overnight, so why even say that?

Like Elphaba from "Wicked"...

gp2.0

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:45 pm

OK. So I had to look this up, and scientifically, it IS possible to have a green complexion. It is either an indication of severe organ failure (clearly not the case here) a disorder which would also make her extremely weak (also not the case here) and sometimes caused by anemia - which I suppose is possible. Idea

pause

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:53 pm

black sheep wrote:

pause, I am not sure if there is a question in your post

You originally said that Esther seduced Achashverosh in order to become queen and save the yidden. I'm questioning the validity of that. Based on the way royal marriages worked, the chances of that happening were very slim.

Last edited by pause on Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

myself

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:54 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

I'm curious though - once the Jews were saved, how was she allowed to stay with Achashveirosh from a halachic point of view?

How do you suppose she back out of that one? Sorry King, it's time for divorce? I imagine that wouldn't have gone down too well with Achashverosh, nor would it bode well for Klal Yisroel.