Normal toddler behavior or PANDAS/OCD? How to tell?

amother

Mon, Feb 23 2015, 9:52 am

DD2 has been stubborn and somewhat ritualistic for a while. I've always assumed this to be just part of toddlerhood - routines, etc. She's going through the "MINE!" phase. Lately I'm starting to wonder if this is really what everyone goes through, though... maybe it's been a little more intense than before? She has been under the weather and had strep about 2 months ago, though she was tested for strep again about a week and a half ago and didn't have any (no red throat but she had fever and wasn't feeling well and had had strep before so it was a just-in-case swab)

For example this morning she was hysterical for 10 minutes because I had put a white spoon in an orange bowl for her breakfast. At first I thought she was getting worked up because I didn't understand what she wanted, but even after I understood and tried talking to her and even offered her different spoons, she was hysterical until I actually removed the white spoon from the orange bowl.

To what extent is this normal? At what point do you suspect an issue? I don't want to overreact but I don't want to miss something important either. It's getting a little nerve-wracking.

amother

Mon, Feb 23 2015, 10:20 am

amother wrote:

Well, if my mother would try to pacify me with spoons I'd also scream to get what I want.
You can give her a spoon, and if she doesn't like the color explain that hopefully tomorrow she'll get the color she likes. There is nothing wrong with her throwing a tantrum and you don't have to beat her up over it but you don't have to do everything she is screaming about. Kids learn very quickly from their parents.

I don't think you understand how hysterical she was. I don't pacify whining or tantrums like this. I was in middle of serving breakfast and all of a sudden she FLIPPED OUT. Took almost 10 minutes for me to understand what she wanted. I tried talking/distracting her out of it first, she was just totally flipped out because she truly, strongly believed that it was a disaster for a white spoon to be in an orange bowl. I had never heard any such thing from her before. But she gets the same way about other things a few times a day - like when I changed my pillowcases and they ended up in a different order, she was crying (not a hysterical tantrum like this, just very very sad. Very sad) because they weren't the way she was used to (the green pillow is supposed to be on top of the blue pillow...)

She is 2. Very sophisticated for a 2-year-old, I think - I don't think most kids her age even have enough language or know their colors enough to say "The white spoon needs a white bowl"

amother

Mon, Feb 23 2015, 10:23 am

amother wrote:

I know 2 year olds who can read and use language. 2 year olds are smart enough to know if their mother can be manipulated and if u are the mother who allows her kid to sleep on her in a certain position I honestly don't blame your daughter. You can explain to a 2 year old that it hurts mommy and mommy needs you to sleep in your own bed. I love you. I'm with you, etc. You are in control of the spoons and it is your job to make your child feel secure and loved with a little structure... if you cannot implement structure don't blame it on your daughter...............
it sounds like you would benefit from a parenting class or a book. she's only 2 now, and her behavior does not seem totally out of the realm of normal, especially if you give into it.

amother

Mon, Feb 23 2015, 10:30 am

I am the same amother as the sleep situation embarrassed

but that's different - that's manipulation but I put up with it because it's not worth the expense of waking the rest of the family, which equals total disaster here and there is no way to avoid it because we live in a 1-room apartment. But the spoon thing was not manipulation, it was a personal tragedy. I do know about manipulation and I do not give in to tantrums or whining. The difference is that when it's a tantrum and you don't give in, they give up after a couple of minutes, whereas in this case the child seems to feel that [the spoon, the pillow] is simply not ABLE to be compromised on. Like if you would try to snatch my child from me you bet I'd put up a fight, not because I am obstinate and unreasonable but because it is that important to me. So that's what it seems like to me - I'm not trying to justify my handling of it, I'm asking WHETHER OR NOT IT'S NORMAL for a child this age to get that devastated over things not being in the right order/routine/matching/etc or if that is a sign of possible/potential OCD c"v. If it's typical toddler behavior to need that, then I will grit my teeth, get some earplugs, and prepare to forge through this stage. But I'm just not sure if this is what it's supposed to be like... seems a little bizarre to me but then again kids are.

amother

Wed, Mar 04 2015, 4:30 am

I have OCD and also had sensory integration issues, and a mild coordination problem. I was a diffidult child and a master tantrum thrower. I also totally broke down from really small things. None of my problems were diagnosed at 2 though.

It doesn't sound like your child necessarily has OCD. If you feel that your child's reactions are excessive, then maybe they really are and it's best to get her checked. It does sound like maybe your child does have some sort of underlying issue, and her general frustration level comes out over little things:

For example, I was constantly frustrated and overwhelmed as a kid due to my issues. For example, if the seam in my socks was bothering me (for someone with sensory issues, this is a big deal), I wasn't entirely aware of the fact that that's what was bothering me, I just felt vaguely uncomfortable. And I acted normal and happy because I could deal with it to some extenet, but then if my mom gave me my breakfast the wrong way it would just be too much for me to handle everything together I would dissolve into a screaming inconsolable mess. This wasn't an OCD thing yet, but rather my general feeling of being overwhelmed by sensory stimulation or coordination difficulty and it coming out elsewhere. Like I have a threshold for frustration or discomfort, and up until that point I am totally fine, and then something little goes wrong (my breakfast) and I lose it. It's like the straw that broke the camel's back.

I strongly suggest you get her checked by a developmental pediatrician or neurologist or developmental psychiatrist. They can help figure out whether your child has an underlying issue and if she does, the earlier it is treated, the better it will be for your child and your whole family. And if you get your child checked and there's no issue, you can just have some peace of mind that your kids is fine and just more sensitive to certain things and will improve with time.

Either way, you'll really really benefit from an evaluation, and either way your kid will be ok - although I could have benefited from earlier evaluation and intervention, I did eventually get it and I'm a normal functioning adult now with two college degrees, a great job, a husband, and a tantruming toddler of my own. I do still where my socks inside out though (so the seam doesn't bother me) Smile

amother

Wed, Mar 04 2015, 7:27 pm

amother wrote:

Op here just wanted to update that she did have strep after all! Still a toddler but more on the normal side now, I think. THanks for the support.

My kids do act "nutty" irrational when they have strep. DD also has various facial and vocal tics since age 3. If she reacts that strongly with OCD like tendencies and tantrums, I would say she is highly at risk for OCD and PANDAS as she grows up. GOOD for you for keeping yours eyes open.

Yael3

Wed, Mar 04 2015, 10:20 pm

OCD, or any other disorders for that matter, are not diagnosed at age 2 (WAY too early). Your toddler is going through so many developmental stages right now and changing rapidly so any diagnosis would not have a solid basis.
I would not get caught up with the color of the spoon and color of the bowl: it sounds to me like your child merely wanted something else in that moment that wasn't happening. Test it and you'll see; on a different day maybe sometime next week, put a white spoon in an orange bowl and see if you get a similar reaction. I imagin you won't. Though I completely understand your concern, it's tupical and normal to worry.
In my professional opinion, most toddlers experience phases of what looks to be "OCD" like symptoms because they often want things in such particular ways.
Enjoy your precious little one Smile