Was Esther together with Achashverosh?

saw50st8

Wed, Mar 04 2015, 1:24 pm

sequoia wrote:

Ok. How do you teach it? How do you persuade a five year old child that god told Avraham to kill Yitzhak, and Avraham did the right thing by obeying, but your mummy would never do that?

I've never heard anyone react like that before, including my kids.

I would explain that Hashem stopped the akeida to teach us that human sacrifice isn't what He wants. Hashem doesn't want us to kill children. We can learn from the message Hashem has put forth to us.

marina

Wed, Mar 04 2015, 1:35 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

What are you talking about? Why do you think "charedim" view agadata literally? I had an extremely charedi teacher for a couple years walking me through agadata and what it symbolized.

It can symbolize many things, but if you argue in the chareidi world that a particular medrash never happend, you are an apikorus gomur. They - most of them- believe that there are different levels of existence and all medrashim happened on some level, even if they contradict each other.

marina

Wed, Mar 04 2015, 1:40 pm

I don't understand why everyone has this weird need to deny Esther a normal s-xual relationship with Achashverosh. She chose, for whatever reason, to marry him. She could have enjoyed it. It doesn't mean she was a bad Jew. So much of the analysis here is so simplistic.

gp2.0

Wed, Mar 04 2015, 1:41 pm

I am surprised that my DD is not more traumatized by the explicit details of haman's hanging...but I do notice an uptick around purim time of her saying "I'm going to kill you" when she's mad, instead of saying something like "I'm going to run away." Meaning, they definitely internalize the violence on some level...oh well, I guess better through the Purim story than through TV or something...

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Mar 04 2015, 1:43 pm

marina wrote:

That is absolutely not true. I spent 2 years learning with a very charedi teacher from the utmost elite Litvish stock of R"Y lineage. Extremely prominent figure.

Agadata is not to be taken literally, and is always coming to teach us something.
Direct quote from my notes right in front of me about a story in the gemara "Either a mashal or a chalom" -- the story was either an allegoric lesson or a dream. Never ever an implication that it was to be taken literally.

It was the entire premise of us learning such medrashim. That while what happened in Torah Shebiksav happened on a literal level, that is not true of Torah She'beal Peh many times.

Again, this was an extremely charedi individual who I was privileged to learn from.

octopus

Wed, Mar 04 2015, 1:44 pm

marina wrote:

ask any "chareidi" rabbi and not one will tell you that an aggadta is meant to be taken literally. maybe it's the ignorant women, who are told they are not allowed to learn gemara, that are taking everything literally.

amother

Wed, Mar 04 2015, 1:44 pm

marina wrote:

You assume she had a choice in the matter, we assume she didn't. We take the assumption further to say that even if she would have a choice she would refuse.

Please explain your choice of words. I'm curious what you base it on.

marina

Wed, Mar 04 2015, 1:47 pm

amother wrote:

well, I guess the other option is that Mordechai forced her into this marriage, directly causing her to be raped? Is that what you'd like to argue?

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Mar 04 2015, 1:47 pm

Seriously, does anyone take this literally? "I saw a frog that was like the castle of Hagronia (sp?) which was 60 houses. A tanin came and swallowed it, and then a female raven came and swallowed that. It went and sat on a branch tree. See how strong the tree is. If I hadn't seen it, I wouldn't have believed it."

This is not a simple story that happened in real life and then detailed in the gemara as a really cool thing that happened! It's a mashal or a chalom. (That Maharsha and Maharal compare it to Doniel's dream with animals representing various rulerships.)

This is a very deep story with allusions to much greater understanding of our galiyos. It blew me away when I learned it. There was absolutely never an implication or hava amina this happened literally.

octopus

Wed, Mar 04 2015, 1:48 pm

marina wrote:

I don't understand the weird obsession either. But can we please get something straight here? Esther did not get to "choose." Esther was taken by force. At some point in the megillah she accepted her position as willing wife of achashveirosh, but really she had no choice in the matter.

marina

Wed, Mar 04 2015, 1:49 pm

octopus wrote:

Lol, I've asked many, thanks for your assumptions.

marina

Wed, Mar 04 2015, 1:49 pm

octopus wrote:

Ok, so Mordechai forced her into the contest? He then caused her to be raped? Good job Mordy!

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Mar 04 2015, 1:50 pm

octopus wrote:

Maybe that's why ein yaakov is ok, because it's not to be taken literally and paskened from Wink

I don't think it's the women who are told not to learn gemara, as much as it's the women who never learned any aggadata inside, gemara or not.

octopus

Wed, Mar 04 2015, 1:50 pm

marina wrote:

well, I guess the other option is that Mordechai forced her into this marriage, directly causing her to be raped? Is that what you'd like to argue?

do you actually read the p'shat of the megillah? I'm not sure where you are getting this. Mordechai didn't force her to be taken by achashveirosh. she just was taken. Who said a single jewish girl would want to be taken by a big hairy king- and yes the medrash says achashveirosh was fat and hairy Smile

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Mar 04 2015, 1:51 pm

marina wrote:

Maybe this part is true, on a symbolic level. Not on a literal level.

octopus

Wed, Mar 04 2015, 1:52 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Maybe that's why ein yaakov is ok, because it's not to be taken literally and paskened from Wink

I don't think it's the women who are told not to learn gemara, as much as it's the women who never learned any aggadata inside, gemara or not.

you are right.
In any case, I feel the accusations of posters that call something "chareidi torah" is coming from a real place of ignorance.

marina

Wed, Mar 04 2015, 1:53 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

First of all, why not take this literally? If Noach stuffed all the animals on to the teiva for a world wide flood and the Egyptian's water turned to blood and the yam suf split and the Jews heard lightening and saw thunder - why not believe this? If you can believe that the entire nation of Egypt was overrun with frogs ( how about that medrash about the giant frog and the mini ones popping out of it like little gremlins?), why can't you believe a story about a giant frog the size of a castle?

amother

Wed, Mar 04 2015, 1:54 pm

marina wrote:

Ok, so Mordechai forced her into the contest? He then caused her to be raped? Good job Mordy!

I believe the words are "and Esther was taken". She wasn't given away by her cousin Mordechai. The word taken implies unwillingness, or else it would say "and Esther went" or "and Mordechai sent Esther".