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So sick and twisted!!



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amother


 

Post Sun, Mar 15 2015, 3:14 pm
I'm feeling frazzled and overwhelmed. I am frum. I keep a basic Jewish, Kosher, "normal" home. However, I've been questioned and know I will be questioned in the future, and my children will be questioned...
Sure, I was previously married. And yes, I was off the derech when I was younger. And yep, I even had my run-in with drugs. And true, I am dealing with secondary infertility. NONE OF THIS MEANS THAT I AM NOT FRUM! I resent that when I remarried the rabbi couldn't take my word on the fact that I had a halachik get. I had to provide documentation to him. When my children are ready to be married I am sure no one will take my husband's word on the fact that he had an orthodox bais din conversion; I have no doubt we will need to prove it. And most definitely documentation that PUAH was involved with our secondary infertility IVF every step of the way will no doubt be required for the shidduch of my chidden. When does the distrust ever end? The Torah gives a lot of reasons for there to be trust issues, e.g. women can't be witnesses on the stand. I'm just not happy with all of this. AT ALL. How many FFB's don't have to prove a thing and they are living as dirty as it gets??! How many "rabbis" are s-xually abusing women and children yet to marry into their families is a "blessing" because of their "rabbi reputation" or yichus? OMG.
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 15 2015, 3:22 pm
people want proof ... who knows why ... just be happy you don't have to get re-circumcised to be a frum man - in front of a minyan no less
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 15 2015, 3:25 pm
It's not because they don't think you're frum. Everyone has to go through this. No one can just assume that a get was given, it's the rabbi's job to make sure that all the paperwork is in order. Same thing with conversions - it's to prevent further problems on down the road if they miss an important detail. You can't take it personally!

Suppose you went to a real estate agent, and went through the process of buying a house. You give him all your money, sign all the paperwork, pack up and get ready to move in, and then find out that the "seller" didn't actually own the house you thought you just "bought". They guy wanted the agent to trust him and take his word for it that he was the home owner! Suppose this guy also just skipped town with all of your money. Sad You'd be pretty furious at the real estate agent for not checking first, right?

Rabbis are just "halachic agents".
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yo'ma




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 15 2015, 6:56 pm
We are one of the frummest families in my childrens school. They asked us for our kesuba. They ask everyone, they don't go by looks or anything like that.
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jeweled




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 15 2015, 7:15 pm
yo'ma wrote:
We are one of the frummest families in my childrens school. They asked us for our kesuba. They ask everyone, they don't go by looks or anything like that.








Why in the world would your kids school need your kesuba? shock
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groovy1224




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 15 2015, 7:35 pm
I feel for you and your frustration, but try not to take it personally. I'm pretty sure it's standard to have to show a get when getting remarried. Divorce and conversions are serious issues, with severe ramifications if not done properly. So rabbis are extra careful. If he takes your word for it, what happens when someone else comes along who does not have a valid get but wants him to 'take her word for it' because she heard he did that for others? It needs to be a blanket policy.
It's not a favoritism issue towards FFBs... you can't provide proof that you're a good person. You can't preview proof that you're not a child molester. You CAN provide proof that your were married/divorced/converted in accordance with Jewish law.

If people are being rude or prejudicial towards you because of your background, it's a separate issue, and it's unacceptable. But the documentation thing is pretty standard, even if unpleasant. The best thing is to show your children that your have nothing to hide and are proud of the path you chose.
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oliveoil




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 15 2015, 7:37 pm
jeweled wrote:
Why in the world would your kids school need your kesuba? shock


It's a pretty standard way of making sure the kids are Jewish.
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vintagebknyc




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 15 2015, 7:46 pm
and it doesn't seem in any way insulting or hurtful unless it happens to you. happened to me, and big OUCH.
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 15 2015, 8:28 pm
Hugs op that sucks. Can you explain who needs to see documentation from puah, and why?
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Smiling Wife




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 15 2015, 9:02 pm
amother wrote:
I'm feeling frazzled and overwhelmed. I am frum. I keep a basic Jewish, Kosher, "normal" home. However, I've been questioned and know I will be questioned in the future, and my children will be questioned...
Sure, I was previously married. And yes, I was off the derech when I was younger. And yep, I even had my run-in with drugs. And true, I am dealing with secondary infertility. NONE OF THIS MEANS THAT I AM NOT FRUM! I resent that when I remarried the rabbi couldn't take my word on the fact that I had a halachik get. I had to provide documentation to him. When my children are ready to be married I am sure no one will take my husband's word on the fact that he had an orthodox bais din conversion; I have no doubt we will need to prove it. And most definitely documentation that PUAH was involved with our secondary infertility IVF every step of the way will no doubt be required for the shidduch of my chidden. When does the distrust ever end? The Torah gives a lot of reasons for there to be trust issues, e.g. women can't be witnesses on the stand. I'm just not happy with all of this. AT ALL. How many FFB's don't have to prove a thing and they are living as dirty as it gets??! How many "rabbis" are s-xually abusing women and children yet to marry into their families is a "blessing" because of their "rabbi reputation" or yichus? OMG.


so sorry, this must be painful for you...
Gerim need papers all the time, russians need papers almost all the time at least here in Israel proving their jewishness, anusim need their papers all the time...etc I don't think it is distrust but we do live in a messy mixed world and unless you have a very clear yichus like " I am the bobover rebbe's daughter" you need to prove your Jewishness.

I disagree that FFBs don't have anything to prove... I know FFBs that are well established etc with a ger in the family or with a crazy story somewhere in the yichus, they also have to prove things.. no one needs to know only the people concerned like school administration etc.

I think that your insecurities about your past are making you take this more personally than it needs to.

Honestly I am a giores but if my kids would get married I would want to ensure the halachik status of anyone they get married to why not? It doesn't mean I don't trust them but I am aware of cases where people become frummer and live Jewishly without having ever checked in past issues.

There was once a bochur learning in yeshiva, he is a BT, he has been learning years... then when he was about to start shidduchim rabbeim wanted to make sure what he said is correct about his jewishness...well his mom didn't have a halachik conversion and he ended up converting himself.... So imagine if no one bothered to check... here is a full fledged [gentile] getting married in a nice frum chassuna...this is a true first hand story I am not going into details but imagine if the rabbeim never bothered to check? The system is not perfect but considering the circumstances of the world today I'd rather have a system than "trust" we are not in a shteible anymore.


Last edited by Smiling Wife on Sun, Mar 15 2015, 9:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother


 

Post Sun, Mar 15 2015, 9:08 pm
I am FFB from a big Rabbinical family on both sides and I still have to show documentation all the time. Before I started dating, before I got married, when I made aliya... It's just part of life. Just because people in one town know you and you have good references doesn't mean that people in a different town can just take your word for it. I am sorry that you are upset but I think it is possible you are feeling insecure about this and it is making you sensitive.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 15 2015, 9:18 pm
Happened to me too. This stuff is standard. Feel better. Hugs.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 16 2015, 9:12 am
In my world everyone needs to provide ketuba, ger certificate, or whatever it is. No one has to say anything about IF. No one is asked if they did drugs or went OTD. Previous marriage is only asked when halachically relevant.

Women can be witnesses but not to everything, and this isn't about yichus.

Of course there are bad FFB people, and bad non FFB people, and good FFB people, and good non FFB people.
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silbergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 16 2015, 10:15 am
Where I am living, it is standard. We always have to show documents when we sign up for shul membership, marriage, aliya, seminary, school. It does not matter if you're a FFB, ger, BT.... everyone has to! Funny story: my hubby is a BT from a traditional background, his parents got married orthodox, his (also BT) sister made aliya and got her marriage license from the Badatz, her mesader kiddishin was the erlauer rov. All documents are there, sisters kesuva, bris certificate, his parents orthodox get... Yet he had bigger problems to prove his Jewishness than me. I am a giores and everything I have to bring and let them see is my conversion certificate. I was accepted everywhere right away while hubby struggled at times to prove his Jewishness (even though he is Jewish mi Har Sinai, mother a bas kohen... noone ever intermarried.... went to yeshiva...and all...)
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amother


 

Post Mon, Mar 16 2015, 10:37 am
Both me and DH are FFB. We had to show documents when getting married, for kids' schools and presumably if we end up making aliyah. Happens to be, my mother was married to a non-Jew before she met my father. When my parents got married, the rav did have to verify that the first husband wasn't Jewish (and therefore no get was necessary). But even DH, who does not have such an interesting family history, was asked to produce his parents' kesuba when we got married. We are MO, so this isn't some kind of super-strict thing either. It's common sense. Obviously, there's a point at which it becomes too much, like asking people to produce records from great-grandparents who died in the Holocaust (and presumably their kesuba died with them) and things like that. But checking a few simple basics is really not a big deal and not limited to your history or whether you are MO, Yeshivish or whatnot.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 16 2015, 10:39 am
Ruchel wrote:
In my world everyone needs to provide ketuba, ger certificate, or whatever it is. No one has to say anything about IF. No one is asked if they did drugs or went OTD. Previous marriage is only asked when halachically relevant.

Women can be witnesses but not to everything, and this isn't about yichus.

Of course there are bad FFB people, and bad non FFB people, and good FFB people, and good non FFB people.


This.

Imagine you were a bank manager. Would you approve a loan to a business without seeing their financial records, etc? Similarly, someone perform a Halachic marriage needs to see a previous get, and assurance that the parties are Jewish.

However, no one belongs in your bedroom, and how you conceive your children is not anyone else's business. I don't think you should have to answer any questions about that - there's no basis for that in Halacha - documentation on conception before a shidduch.
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Heyaaa




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 16 2015, 10:49 am
I know this isn't the point but maybe if you're reassured that most of your complaints aren't based on the truth you'll feel a little better (I hope)

No one should ever ask for your IF information aside from your dr or if your kids God forbid go through the same thing, they may ask bec you went through the same thing.

Most rabbis are not sezually abusing anyone.

Women are allowed to be witnesses just not for everything (ie we can't be witnesses for life and death cases)
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mazal555




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 16 2015, 10:53 am
silbergirl wrote:
Where I am living, it is standard. We always have to show documents when we sign up for shul membership, marriage, aliya, seminary, school. It does not matter if you're a FFB, ger, BT.... everyone has to! Funny story: my hubby is a BT from a traditional background, his parents got married orthodox, his (also BT) sister made aliya and got her marriage license from the Badatz, her mesader kiddishin was the erlauer rov. All documents are there, sisters kesuva, bris certificate, his parents orthodox get... Yet he had bigger problems to prove his Jewishness than me. I am a giores and everything I have to bring and let them see is my conversion certificate. I was accepted everywhere right away while hubby struggled at times to prove his Jewishness (even though he is Jewish mi Har Sinai, mother a bas kohen... noone ever intermarried.... went to yeshiva...and all...)


That's pretty funny.
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Ruchi




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 16 2015, 10:35 pm
amother wrote:
I'm feeling frazzled and overwhelmed. I am frum. I keep a basic Jewish, Kosher, "normal" home. However, I've been questioned and know I will be questioned in the future, and my children will be questioned...
Sure, I was previously married. And yes, I was off the derech when I was younger. And yep, I even had my run-in with drugs. And true, I am dealing with secondary infertility. NONE OF THIS MEANS THAT I AM NOT FRUM! I resent that when I remarried the rabbi couldn't take my word on the fact that I had a halachik get. I had to provide documentation to him. When my children are ready to be married I am sure no one will take my husband's word on the fact that he had an orthodox bais din conversion; I have no doubt we will need to prove it. And most definitely documentation that PUAH was involved with our secondary infertility IVF every step of the way will no doubt be required for the shidduch of my chidden. When does the distrust ever end? The Torah gives a lot of reasons for there to be trust issues, e.g. women can't be witnesses on the stand. I'm just not happy with all of this. AT ALL. How many FFB's don't have to prove a thing and they are living as dirty as it gets??! How many "rabbis" are s-xually abusing women and children yet to marry into their families is a "blessing" because of their "rabbi reputation" or yichus? OMG.


it's like a bank statement, you have proof of your transactions and can always refer to it for verification or if there are errors. Same thing, these documents need to be used not because people think you are lying but as legal verification.
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Ruchi




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 16 2015, 10:40 pm
amother wrote:
I'm feeling frazzled and overwhelmed. I am frum. I keep a basic Jewish, Kosher, "normal" home. However, I've been questioned and know I will be questioned in the future, and my children will be questioned...
Sure, I was previously married. And yes, I was off the derech when I was younger. And yep, I even had my run-in with drugs. And true, I am dealing with secondary infertility. NONE OF THIS MEANS THAT I AM NOT FRUM! I resent that when I remarried the rabbi couldn't take my word on the fact that I had a halachik get. I had to provide documentation to him. When my children are ready to be married I am sure no one will take my husband's word on the fact that he had an orthodox bais din conversion; I have no doubt we will need to prove it. And most definitely documentation that PUAH was involved with our secondary infertility IVF every step of the way will no doubt be required for the shidduch of my chidden. When does the distrust ever end? The Torah gives a lot of reasons for there to be trust issues, e.g. women can't be witnesses on the stand. I'm just not happy with all of this. AT ALL. How many FFB's don't have to prove a thing and they are living as dirty as it gets??! How many "rabbis" are s-xually abusing women and children yet to marry into their families is a "blessing" because of their "rabbi reputation" or yichus? OMG.


Additionally, there are corrupted people out there who could sell a story out of their mouth and claim they had an orthodox conversion or other stuff, therefore , proper documentation is necessary.
When you open a bank account you also have to provide proof of address, and other legal documents and you wouldn't question them why they ask for this. Same thing here with halachic matters of importance.
A FFB also has to show their Get document before they remarry.
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