Sandak issues :( | Imamother

amother

Smokey

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 9:44 am

I'm so frustrated.

Last week I gave birth to my first son and the bris is around the corner, G-d willing.
My son is my father's first male grandchild (girls run in our family!). For a variety of reasons (trust me on this), my father is unlikely to ever have another opportunity to be sandak at a grandson's bris, and if he were, it would be many many years before it might happen again.

My father-in-law has 7 grandsons from his other children and has never been sandak at any of their brisim because he has said himself that he does not wish to fulfill the role (I.e. makes him uncomfortable, he doesn't like to see the blood, etc.). My FIL went so far as to tell my husband a while ago (before I was pregnant), that he would not wish to be sandak at any bris of ours for those same reasons.

As this is my father's first male grandchild and, as my FIL already indicated his preference, we decided to honor my father with this role.

Just the other day my FIL called my husband to announce that he's decided he would very much like to be sandak at our bris. My husband was shocked. He said "Abba, you've always said the opposite. You said you didn't want the role! We've gone and made some other decisions about the bris now". His father only replied "What can I say? I'm telling you that I really really want to be sandak". And he kept repeating, without explanation or apologies for changing his mind, that he just really wants to do it.

My husband made no promises, but said that he would speak with me, and left it at that.

I would also like to add in the following. Between my husband and I, there are four parents. Three of them cause us endless anxiety, grief and problems, and have since before we got married. Three of them are difficult, show no care for making our lives easier or protecting our Shalom Bayis, or in our feelings....And then there is my father, who is the exception.

From day one, my father has been the ONLY parent among the 4 who is the polar opposite of the others. He helps us tremendously, goes out of his way to ensure that we know that we have his full support to do whatever we need to make our lives easy and happy.

In fact, my father happened to call me the other day, as he often does, and as we were speaking, he said "I want you to know, as you plan your bris, that your happiness and shalom bayis is the most important thing. I'm not offended by what role I'm given at a bris, if any". I know that my father would love to be sandak, but in his typical fashion, he is putting us before his own desires.

It would mean so much to me to honor my father at this bris. I very much want to make him sandak. My husband remarked that, since my father went out of his way to tell us that he won't get offended by not being sandak, we could consider giving the role to my FIL. I am very upset by this idea. I do not want to strip my father of this honor just because he is the only one who is thoughtful and easy going in our families. On the contrary, this is precisely why I'd like to honor him.

My FIL has never made such demands of his other children, only my husband. His own excuse is "I've never been sandak", but the reality is that he's had so many grandsons and has always said that he didn't want to be sandak.

Can someone offer advice about what to do?

amother

Mustard

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 10:07 am

"Although one is required to honor one’s father-in-law, there is a greater responsibility to honor one’s own father. Thus, in the absence of paternal male antecedents, one should honor the mother’s father or grandfather. However, when the paternal grandfather is present, the responsibility of the baby’s father to honor his own father precedes his responsibility to honor his father-in-law."

http://rabbikaganoff.com/who-s.....ndek/

We also had a difficult decision to make. In the end we gave it to my fil because he really wanted it, and my husband wanted to honor his wishes.

mommy3b2c

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 10:13 am

Your father sounds like a tzaddik. In this case, I would ask a respected rav or mentor who is thoughtful and a mentch. I'm not big into the "ask a rav" scene, but in this case I would say give it to your father, unless you speak to someone respected who says otherwise.

animeme

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 10:33 am

Does fil like to feel honored? Can he give a speech?

Weird idea, but your father sounds amazing, and amazing people can feel a lot of pain from having caused conflict, even if it was not their intention, if it was avoidable. Would your father feel pain if you gave him the kibbud, for all the right reasons, and you fil became very upset and there were repercussions? If so, maybe he could give the speech.

It is also possible that if you tell fil, "you will be sandak, he will speak", that fil might decide he wants that role instead.

Not simple. I bless you with koach and insight.

greenfire

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 10:35 am

not only did FIL have his chances ... it's really not fair to put that pressure on you ... you said it yourself - based on personality and kindness, your father deserves this kovod - you can't go back in time - do not regret leaving this kovod to someone else ...

amother

Babyblue

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 10:45 am

I feel very strongly about such situations. If your father is the only one that's being supportive od you please give it to him !
The only red light is that FIL changed his mind all of a sudden- I wonder if cv"s he found out about an illness or something ?
What I would do :
Tell DH to call FIL. Tell him you have already promised the role to your father. Then ask if there's a particular reason for this change of heart. If he doesn't bring a great reason then give your father the honor. He deserves it ! And don't forget there's suppsed to be a connection between the sandak and the baby - that's why ppl ask great rabbis to be sandak. I wouldn't give this role to a man you don't respect when your father who you do respect is right there !
I hate when the nice ppl end up losing out ...
I refused to let FIL be the sandak of my boys so we asked one of the great rabbis that love near us to do it . I feel bad for my father but ok not that close with him ether and FIL wiukd have made a huge deal out of not being sandak if my father was... This way he had nothing to say.

amother

Babyblue

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 10:47 am

And btw you're a yoledes- you just had a baby... Your wishes come b4 anybody else's!

amother

Amber

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 10:53 am

I had a similar situation, but the opposite. I refuse to give it to my father. The only way I was able to find the strength to do it was to speak to a competent rav who could explain to me my obligations, what's prefered, etc. I also spoke to a social worker about the emotional components. Then I decided. I felt like I had all the facts straight, and I was able to make a wise decision. At the time it went to someone else. No explanations necessary.

saw50st8

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 11:05 am

Personally, I would give it to your father. Not only is he warm and supportive of you, it's a unique opportunity for him. Your FIL should just wait until he has another chance.

There are always things you do for shalom. This is something I would stand up for. We had a situation at our first Bris that we narrowly skirted away from. It was challenging to make sure nobody realized, but we worked it out. I didn't give it though and that was important.

abound

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 11:43 am

did you tell FIL that you gave the sandak to someone else and the person knows?

mummiedearest

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 12:39 pm

just tell your fil that it's too late, plans are made.

Raisin

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 12:45 pm

If you can do it in a way that there will not be hurt feelings on the part of your fil, and thus friction at the bris, I think your father should get it.

amother

Burgundy

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 1:14 pm

Sometimes out of pressure we make the wrong decisions. People told me that I shouldn't allow my father to be sandik because he wasn't frum. Then I gave sandik to the ~~rabbi~~ man who molested me.

A mistake I will regret for the rest of my life!

ROFL

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 1:40 pm

You are so lucky to have such a supporting father. Hugs to you

amother

Seafoam

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 1:40 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

just tell your fil that it's too late, plans are made.

I agree be very apologetic but tell him you already told your father that he will be having the kavod and it wouldnt be right to take it away from him.

if your FIL is upset, too bad, if he throws his wrath on you too bad

also you mention that your father may not be around for future ones, if I remember correctly there is a segula for a sick person to be a sandik either for refuah or for arichas yomim.

When I was pregnant last year before I knew I was having a girl I would have offered my sister in law's father in law the kavod FIRST (before my father and father in law. I have 2 boys their sandiks were my grandfather and rav shteinman). He is a wonderful man who was very sick at the time. He is someone I have known since I was born. I am telling you this because it was MY CHILD. I wanted to make sure I was using my child's bracha abilities properly. I NEED to do what is best for my family and teaching them Chesed is what is important. I show them Kibud Av in other ways on a constant basis. As adults they may question why I did it in terms of Kibud Av and I would have explained it to them.

studying_torah

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 2:04 pm

To the Amother above, I'm sooo sorry! Hugs to you!!!
To the op, I agree that your father should be sandek and mazel tov !

mummiedearest

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 2:11 pm

amother wrote:

I disagree on the "very apologetic" bit. if he thinks you really prefer to give it to him, he will keep bothering you. just tell him that it's been promised already and that he can do something else. don't undermine your own decision.

amother

Chocolate

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 2:44 pm

This is very interesting for me. I am expecting my second in a bunch of months. My first was a boy and we used my father in law. There is no way in the world I would ever use my father as sandek. He is terribly abusive and I don't want my child to emulate him in any way. So even though I am very early on in my pregnancy, I am already worrying about what will be if it's a boy.
I think you should use your father, a decision you will be happy with.

amother

Papaya

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 2:55 pm

I had a similar situation once. In my case, it was dh's step father who decided the day before the bris that he wants to be sandig. He had just heard that the reason he wasn't going to be sandig was because dh's biological father would have been angry if the step father was sandig. The step father was so persistent, making my mil call us and beg every two minutes, until he (the step father) finally had an anxiety attack and was taken to the hospital with difficulty breathing. Dh asked a shaila three times, and each time he was told that kibud av comes first. If his father would be upset by the step father being sandig, then the step father cannot be sandig.

My mil also asked what we are naming the baby and was upset we weren't naming after her father, but dh said not to even start with that. We had more than enough misery from the sandig thing already.

Our Rosh yeshiva was sandig. The bris felt more like a funeral than a simcha. We gave dh's step father the kibud of Krias Shem, which is considered the second biggest kibud, but he refused to come up because he was too mad. He and my mil did not stay for the seuda. We thought they would never speak to us again, but they went home and called all their siblings to complain about how mean we are, and ALL of them sided with us. There are a lot of siblings between the two of them, and every single one told my in-laws that they were completely wrong. So they called to make peace, though they never apologized, and don't think I've forgotten about it.

I'm not sure what lesson you could take out of my story, but maybe you will find it helpful to know that I was inthe same boat or worse.

amother

Brunette

Fri, Mar 27 2015, 4:36 pm

Not sure if you can do this, but we divide the sandek into two parts with 2 different people.
The more choshuv is holding the baby while he's being cut, but holding the baby while he gets the name is called sandek meumed.
Maybe give that to your fil. Would that work?

Good luck. I have 4 boys and every bris I had anxiety about the kibbudim.