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Sandak issues :(
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Think1st




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Mar 27 2015, 3:16 pm
Any idea how would your dear father react if you tell him of your dilemma? Would he say for the sake of shalom I will wait for next chance?
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Mar 27 2015, 7:01 pm
animeme wrote:
Does fil like to feel honored? Can he give a speech?

Weird idea, but your father sounds amazing, and amazing people can feel a lot of pain from having caused conflict, even if it was not their intention, if it was avoidable. Would your father feel pain if you gave him the kibbud, for all the right reasons, and you fil became very upset and there were repercussions? If so, maybe he could give the speech.

It is also possible that if you tell fil, "you will be sandak, he will speak", that fil might decide he wants that role instead.

Not simple. I bless you with koach and insight.


Not a weird idea at all. I read all the other replies, and I found yours to be incredibly insightful and sensitive.

It's easy to get caught up in who's right and who's wrong, and what's "fair", but if your father will be upset at the family strife, then that's definitely something to take into consideration.
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amother
Ecru


 

Post Sat, Mar 28 2015, 5:17 am
amother wrote:
Not sure if you can do this, but we divide the sandek into two parts with 2 different people.
The more choshuv is holding the baby while he's being cut, but holding the baby while he gets the name is called sandek meumed.
Maybe give that to your fil. Would that work?

Good luck. I have 4 boys and every bris I had anxiety about the kibbudim.


We also did this; I thought everybody does. My FIL had sandek and my father had sandek meumad, and both kibbudim were considered equal.
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amother
Fuchsia


 

Post Sat, Mar 28 2015, 12:16 pm
Wow, tough situation for you to be dealing with right now!

I think I'd ask a rav for help in this case. From what you've said, your father really seems like he should be sandek, but on the other hand, I read what Rav Kaganoff wrote (quoted by the first amother), so I'd definitely ask a rav.
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amother
Crimson


 

Post Sat, Mar 28 2015, 5:50 pm
I had a sticky situation and asked a rav. I was told that the kavod was to be offered to my husband's father first as he has the mitzvah of kibbud av over me. I'm no rav but it doesn't sound like you asked your father in law after the baby was born. You just went by his say so from before the birth. I would think that because of the halacha of kibbud av that your husband has, he would be obligated to give it to his father.
again I am no rav and do recommend discussing it with one.
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amother
Pearl


 

Post Sat, Mar 28 2015, 7:00 pm
That's a tough spot to be in, sorry OP! Just another idea - if you happen to be naming the baby after a grandfather, give the father on that side the kibud of krias shem. I named my DS for my father's father and gave my father krias hashem at his bris, it was very meaningful for him. (My husband's grandfather was sandak, I don't remember what we gave my FIL.)
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hesha




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Mar 28 2015, 7:21 pm
I didn't read all the other replies, but I think its sensible to have your husband tell his father that he spoke to you, and that you had already gone ahead and told your father that he was going to be sandek, before their conversation, since you knew your FIL's regular policy about not wanting the position. to now go back and have to tell your father that he can't do it would be very hurtful, as much as you would like to give it to your FIL. maybe next baby, blah blah blah.
I'm very sorry, but he shouldn't be putting demands on you about what kibbud he wants at the bris....its not his baby!
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Mar 28 2015, 8:35 pm
All the segula things about being sandek are nice but not very well-founded. What we do know from the Torah itself is that shalom brings blessings, and that kibud av is the best "segula" for long life. Here you can honor both fathers' wishes at once while maintaining the peace because one has clearly said that he would not want to be sandek if it will cause others to feel bad. So what's the question?

You will probably feel better about it yourself if you ask a rav, though. It's easier to follow advice than to bear the weight yourself.
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amother
Goldenrod


 

Post Sat, Mar 28 2015, 9:29 pm
seeker wrote:
All the segula things about being sandek are nice but not very well-founded. What we do know from the Torah itself is that shalom brings blessings, and that kibud av is the best "segula" for long life. Here you can honor both fathers' wishes at once while maintaining the peace because one has clearly said that he would not want to be sandek if it will cause others to feel bad. So what's the question?

You will probably feel better about it yourself if you ask a rav, though. It's easier to follow advice than to bear the weight yourself.


This is nice in theory, but I suspect that there is a lot more at play here. The OP stated that her relationship with her ILs is rocky. It doesn't seem so normal for someone to tell you for months that they don't want to be Sandek, and then when it comes down to it they tell you that they changed their mind.

OP you are a Yoledes. Ultimately your needs come first. Yes, your husband may Halachically need to respect his parents more than yours, but if his father being Sandek will be too hard on you emotionally, then your needs come first. (Obviously this is my opinion, AYLOR.)

When I was pregnant, my parents told me that the Minhag for a first grandson (which it was for both sides) is that the paternal grandfather of the baby be Sandek. In other words they were expecting my FIL to be it. However, my husband was very insistent that my grandfather be offered the Kibbud. My husband wanted a Talmud Chacham to be Sandek, and he views this particular grandfather to be one. He felt that his father would be happy enough to hold the baby during Krias HaShem, which would be meaningful as our son was being named after FILs father. I was nervous that my other grandfather would be offended (again, first great grandson on all sides), but my husband was still very insistent. My parents were a bit baffled that we deviated from what they thought was normal practice (ie my FIL being Sandek), but they said nothing to us.

My fears about my other grandfather getting upset turned out unfounded, as my that grandfather didn't even show up to the Bris. Because it was on Shabbos and they wanted US to find them a place to stay in our neighborhood. And meals (we don't have any family here, my family that came in took care of themselves for meals), even though they know plenty of people who could have technically hosted them.

Hugs OP. I totally feel for you! Stay strong!
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amother
Floralwhite


 

Post Sat, Mar 28 2015, 10:12 pm
I feel for you, OP. You're in a tough spot.

My parents seem more like your father, so I guess I'm lucky. I recently gave birth (to a girl). If the baby had been a boy, we would have named him after my father in law's father and had my FIL be sandek. My parents told us outright that my father had already been zocheh to be sandek for a grandchild before, so we should definitely make FIL sandek for the first grandson on his side.

I'm writing this not to make you feel jealous or anything, but as a heads up to anyone reading this thread. Most of us with children will go on to have grandchildren. Don't put your children in these kinds of positions that your parents are putting you in. Let your children make their own decisions and don't be so makpid on your kavod.

ETA: What kind of a color is floral white?!
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amother
Puce


 

Post Sun, Mar 29 2015, 2:57 am
https://www.google.co.uk/webhp.....white
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the world's best mom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 29 2015, 5:56 am
seeker wrote:
All the segula things about being sandek are nice but not very well-founded. What we do know from the Torah itself is that shalom brings blessings, and that kibud av is the best "segula" for long life. Here you can honor both fathers' wishes at once while maintaining the peace because one has clearly said that he would not want to be sandek if it will cause others to feel bad. So what's the question?

You will probably feel better about it yourself if you ask a rav, though. It's easier to follow advice than to bear the weight yourself.
I do not know how well founded they are, but when my brother was sick and we asked him to be Sandig at ds's Bris, he refused. R' Dovid Feinstein went over to him and told him to be Sandig because it is a Segula for many things including Refuah. He wouldn't disobey R' Dovid, so he did it.
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relish




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 29 2015, 6:22 am
Op, please tell us what you decided in the end.
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amother
Smokey


 

Post Sun, Mar 29 2015, 8:50 pm
Op here.
I spoke to my husband and he immediately said that he very much wants to honor my father and that he feels that he is 100% deserving of the honor for many reasons.
We have explored many possible scenarios about alternative honors for each of our fathers, but in the end we both agree that theres so much wrong here:
1) one shouldn't demand an honor for oneself or even request it firmly.
2) one shouldn't extend an honorific role out of a sense of guilt or just not wanting to end up with confrontation,
3) one shouldn't strip a deserving person of an honor simply because they would accept not being honored appropriately (ie. My father being very easy going),
4) one shouldn't extend an honor to someone when they very much feel that someone else is more deserving.

We will be asking my father to fulfill the role if he'd like. If he'd prefer not to, then we will extend it to my FIL.
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ROFL




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 29 2015, 9:47 pm
Go if for you. May your son grow up emulating you father in his midos. Mazal tov to you
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 29 2015, 9:49 pm
the world's best mom wrote:
I do not know how well founded they are, but when my brother was sick and we asked him to be Sandig at ds's Bris, he refused. R' Dovid Feinstein went over to him and told him to be Sandig because it is a Segula for many things including Refuah. He wouldn't disobey R' Dovid, so he did it.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with doing it. Just saying that there *could* be other things more important. Each situation has its own context. This is why we all need a rav to ask and follow.
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