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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Pesach
I don't trust myself
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justforfun87




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 30 2015, 2:43 am
They say not to go crazy, as crumbs are not chametz. Yet when it comes down to the kitchen, it is all lies. One crumb can not be eaten. I can't possibly get every crumb in the kitchen. I don't trust myself that I scrubbed hard enough, that I didn't purposely overlook, I am stressed about covering all the walls by the counter with foil. The sink with foil, the oven door with foil. How can they say don't go crazy when that is what recommended?! grrr...
P.s
This is all triggered by the crumbs I can see but can't get to that fell between my oven door and the vent. ( Its a wall oven.)
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 30 2015, 2:54 am
Make an effort to get all the hametz you can out of your house, but don't make yourself crazy. You're only human.

It might help if you have another person (one of your kids, for example), walk through your kitchen and think of all sorts of places where hametz may be lurking. Sometimes using another pair of eyes helps.

And remember, rabbanim know we are only human. That's why we have a nullifucation statement right after bedikat hametz.
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justforfun87




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 30 2015, 2:59 am
I agree with that, but really the kitchen is not just about finding chametz.
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grace413




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 30 2015, 3:09 am
http://www.aish.com/h/pes/l/48970611.html

The following is an excerpt from the above link. Maybe it will help you.


WHAT ARE WE SEARCHING FOR?
What kind of chametz do we have to get rid of? And what is "chametz" anyway?
The Torah says: Lo yera'eh lecha chametz, velo year'eh lecha se'or bechol gevulecha - "neither chametz nor se'or shall be visible to you in all your boundaries." Chametz is defined as the result of grain that ferments. Se'or is sourdough -- highly fermented dough that is used to make another dough ferment. Instead of using yeast, what they did in the olden days (and many people do today as well) is to take a little piece of old dough, mix that with the fresh dough, and it causes the fresh dough to rise.
So chametz and se'or are the two things the Torah requires us to get rid of. But there's a difference between the two. Chametz is food. It's edible by human standards -- you'd serve it, you'd eat it. If a human being wouldn't eat it, then it's not chametz, because by definition chametz must be food. On the other hand, nobody eats se'or -- non-edible fermented grain which has the function of fermenting other dough.
There's a third category: Non-edible chametz that is not capable of fermenting other dough. That is neither chametz nor se'or. Halachically we call this "garbage" -- and it does not have to be gotten rid of for Passover. Similarly, the Talmud says that se'or which is so bad that even a dog wouldn't eat it -- I.e. it's poisonous -- is halachically not regarded as se'or and is therefore not a problem on Passover.
To review the three categories:
1) Chametz is food made of fermented grain.
2) Se'or is non-edible sourdough, which has the power to ferment other dough.
3) "Garbage" is something that is either incapable of fermenting other dough, or so totally non-edible that a dog wouldn't eat it.


BREAD CRUMBS
What about bread crumbs on your kitchen floor? There are various opinions in halacha, but I'm going to present one in particular that is easier to understand.
We established that the third category -- "garbage" -- is defined as anything that cannot ferment another dough, and is so non-edible that even a dog wouldn't eat it.
According to most halachic authorities, there is one more substance that is defined as "garbage": Chametz that is smaller than a kezayit (about 30 grams) and you would not use it for anything. This is something most people call "garbage" -- you would easily throw it away and in your mind it's nothing. Crumbs fit into this category.
The only kind of crumb that's problematic is one you'd pick up with your finger and put on your tongue. So leftover crumbs from the table are in fact "chametz." Leftover crumbs on the floor, which you wouldn't eat, are garbage. Therefore, any crumb that you would consider dirt (and is smaller than a kezayit) does not have to be gotten rid of.
(The fact that a baby eats it does not turn it into chametz. Because when a baby decides to eat something, it is not a conscious decision that "this is food." If you have non-food around, a baby will eat that, too!)
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 30 2015, 3:21 am
Thank you Grace for this injection of sanity.
The point about crumbs = garbage cannot be emphasized enough in the Pesach discourse.
It needs to be reiterated over and over in order to lower stress levels in countless families during these coming days.
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justforfun87




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 30 2015, 3:28 am
I read that in Aish.com as well and that is all fine and dandy for the living room. Back to my original point, it does say though that a crumb found on a table is a problem. So crumbs that are in crevices in kitchen/oven and can find themselves onto your plate is a problem, no?
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JMM-uc




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 30 2015, 3:36 am
The crumbs you see and can't get to you can either
a) use a toothpick
b) spray it with cleaning spray and that makes it לא ראוי למאכל כלב which definitely makes it not chometz.
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5mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 30 2015, 3:42 am
How is a crumb going to jump out from behind the oven and onto your plate?
If you have cleaned off the surfaces you use for eating and food prep, you are ok. Really.
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myname1




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 30 2015, 4:05 am
Based on your timing, it looks like you're in Israel. So for the covering of the sink, I don't see why you don't get one (or 2) of those plastic sink inserts. We bought ours in the regular supermarket, but hardware and houseware stores also have them I'm sure. So that makes the sinks much easier every year. As for the oven, we have a separate large countertop oven for Pesach (fleishig), but I realize that for larger families that is probably less practical.
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justforfun87




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 30 2015, 4:21 am
myname1 wrote:
Based on your timing, it looks like you're in Israel. So for the covering of the sink, I don't see why you don't get one (or 2) of those plastic sink inserts. We bought ours in the regular supermarket, but hardware and houseware stores also have them I'm sure. So that makes the sinks much easier every year. As for the oven, we have a separate large countertop oven for Pesach (fleishig), but I realize that for larger families that is probably less practical.

I work nights, not in Israel. Will look into inserts.
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imaima




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 30 2015, 4:36 am
justforfun87 wrote:
I read that in Aish.com as well and that is all fine and dandy for the living room. Back to my original point, it does say though that a crumb found on a table is a problem. So crumbs that are in crevices in kitchen/oven and can find themselves onto your plate is a problem, no?


If a crumb is in the crevice of your oven, and I guess it is hard to remove and not very appetizing, then how is it supposwd to find it's way on your plate??
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 30 2015, 4:43 am
I spray all purpose kitchen cleaner down into places I can't reach, like the space between the oven and the wall.

I also have two dogs, so I figure if they haven't eaten something yet, I'm probably safe, LOL! One of them will eat absolutely anything that hits the floor, I think I should have named her "Roomba". LOL

Next year I'm going to rent her out to people to do a last minute search for chametz. People can have their home certified "unfit for a dog", and they can relax knowing that they have fulfilled the letter of the law. I'll be a millionaire! Very Happy
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myself




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 30 2015, 5:23 am
As others have already said, once it's sprayed with detergent it is no longer edible and therefore aint a problem. Remember that the Torah was given to humans. Follow the guidelines set out by our Rabbonim, as the one above, and stay calm in the knowledge that you have done all that was required of you. Yom Tov is not meant to be a stressful time.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 30 2015, 5:28 am
myself wrote:
As others have already said, once it's sprayed with detergent it is no longer edible and therefore aint a problem. Remember that the Torah was given to humans. Follow the guidelines set out by our Rabbonim, as the one above, and stay calm in the knowledge that you have done all that was required of you. Yom Tov is not meant to be a stressful time.


Myself, the title of this thread is "I don't trust myself." so why should we trust you? Tongue Out

Another thing to remember is that "we declare all chametz that we have seen, and that we HAVE NOT SEEN to be ownerless." The rabbonim knew when they wrote that, that we would never be able to see every single crumb, and that most likely there would be a kazayis if we scraped them all together.
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myself




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 30 2015, 5:45 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
Myself, the title of this thread is "I don't trust myself." so why should we trust you? Tongue Out

Another thing to remember is that "we declare all chametz that we have seen, and that we HAVE NOT SEEN to be ownerless." The rabbonim knew when they wrote that, that we would never be able to see every single crumb, and that most likely there would be a kazayis if we scraped them all together.


Yeah, you caught me on that one. *hiding under the table* LOL

I think that in OP's case you need to stress on the 'that we have seen' too, we're only human after all and just so you know, Hashem is fully aware of that! Very Happy
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sky




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 30 2015, 10:35 am
I also spray to help my sanity. I clean as well as I possibly can then take a spray bottle filled with ammonia and water and cover every crevice and opening. This way I know anything I've missed becomes inedible.

I also get nervous. I spent a long time on my oven. And I keep finding new cracks and areas that crumbs get into and are hard to clean fully. and then when I finish an area I see tiny dots there (probably dust, but how to know?) and it drives me nuts, I remind myself that it was sprayed.

I agree the kitchen isn't like the living room or a bedroom. We don't put food in the clothing drawers, or eat off the couch. So it isn't as big of a deal.
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kb




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 30 2015, 10:46 am
I think I remember kol chamira including what we saw as well.

Probably not a recommended method for sinks, but my husband poured draino in the sink (down the drain) and let it sit, and that really made scrubbing the inside easy!!
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rosenbal




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 30 2015, 11:46 am
Are you often plagued by this type of anxiety? It sounds borderline OCD or an anxiety disorder. I'm not trying to be mean, but if this recurs every pesach maybe get some help ahead of time? A relative of mine had anxiety (not OCD though) regarding a specific issue, saw a good CBT therapist and in a very few sessions it made a huge difference.

I'm also not a therapist and can't diagnose...just trying to see if this is something helpful. Once I learned all the real halachos on how to clean for pesach (some of what people mentioned above), pesach ceased to make me nervous (Go ammonia!). I really believe there's no real reason for self doubt when you know the halacha.

What about mikvah? Do you trust yourself to prepare properly?
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 30 2015, 2:29 pm
FranticFrummie wrote:
I spray all purpose kitchen cleaner down into places I can't reach, like the space between the oven and the wall.

I also have two dogs, so I figure if they haven't eaten something yet, I'm probably safe, LOL! One of them will eat absolutely anything that hits the floor, I think I should have named her "Roomba". LOL

Next year I'm going to rent her out to people to do a last minute search for chametz. People can have their home certified "unfit for a dog", and they can relax knowing that they have fulfilled the letter of the law. I'll be a millionaire! Very Happy


Cute! Sign me up!
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 30 2015, 2:31 pm
kb wrote:
I think I remember kol chamira including what we saw as well.

Probably not a recommended method for sinks, but my husband poured draino in the sink (down the drain) and let it sit, and that really made scrubbing the inside easy!!


You scrub the inside of your DRAIN????
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