Forced marriages (s/o of All Who Go Do Not Return)

amother

Seagreen

Fri, Apr 17 2015, 10:05 am

amother wrote:

My mother has a Chassidish friend with big Yichus. On her wedding night, her Chosson told her that his parents forced him to marry her for her Yichus.

I'm Litvish and after we married my husband told me that he was pushed to get engaged to me because his grandparents were visiting from overseas and his parents wanted them to be there for the festivities. I was so hurt to hear that. We are happy now but it took alot of work.

There's pressure in all societies. I also felt pressure. My father is a shy man and every time he had to check out a boy for me, I felt pressure to say no after a date because he was disappointed he'd have to go thru it again. He would ask me why I wasn't interested and often he just didn't get it. I had to justify every guy I didn't want to marry.

amother

Green

Fri, Apr 17 2015, 10:06 am

I have so, so much to say about this issue, since it almost happened to me several times. The "almost" is because when I was shidduchim age, I was already more "modern" and somewhat challenging the system on the inside, although I portrayed a typical chassidish exterior. I'm from a rather open minded chassidish family, but it's still expected to marry someone after three beshows. 99% of the people I know married the first person they met, and I don't think love at first sight is the real explanation for that Smile

.

I remember one guy that I met from a very rebbishe family, and my family was absolutely devastated when I said no. He had much better yichus than us, and the marriage would have raised the social caliber of my family significantly. My parents were literally crying and begging me to go ahead with it, and I came very close to agreeing just to make them happy. I almost agreed to marry a man that I found pompous, entitled, extremely unattractive and generally insensitive just because it would make my family happy. Well, I was 19 years old, and I guess my value system hadn't matured, and I felt extreme pressure not to hit the dreaded 20 year mark. I remember that after that beshow, I always felt a pang of fear before entering my home, worried that I would walk into a surprise l'chaim.

I hit the dreaded 20 year mark, and when I nixed another shidduch that was redt my mother literally almost had a breakdown, and sat down on the floor wracked with sobs, saying that she doesn't know what will be with me. That I don't know what's best for my future, and if I would only have some more brains I would just say yes to this shidduch. The guilt was tremendous. I cannot even describe it, but somehow I was able to stave that one off as well. This person later ended up marrying someone else I know. He was from overseas, and when they flew in for the shidduch they had already purchased the bracelet, which was proudly given at the second meeting or so. My gut feelings about this wonderful person from the wonderful family were right, and there is no doubt that I would have divorced within days had I caved to family pressure.

Either way, I ended up marrying a wonderful man that I love from the bottom of my heart. I am ever grateful that I had the courage not to let myself be married off in this way, and I feel strongly for those that were hurt by this system. It could have been me.

supty

Fri, Apr 17 2015, 10:12 am

amother wrote:

Yep. Exactly. I think the mentors/rabbeim involved need to listen to the person. Is she saying: He has bad middos. - or is she saying - he has good middos, but I don't know if I want to marry him? Biggg difference. Sometimes the latter = cold feet. I really believe MOST marriages can work if there's good middos involved. It may not be head-over-heels, but people can grow to love each other if they really work on it. But if someone has bad middos, and she knew it but was pushed into marrying him anyway... tsk tsk tsk tsk.

I don't agree with this at all. Someone can have good middos, and still not get along with everyone. Good middos doesn't mean your compatible with just anyone. I don't mean he/she will suddenly become abusive or anything extreme like that, but I know people who overall have good middos and are good people, but sometimes certain individuals can just bring out the worst in them. Why not spend the extra time (a few weeks?!) to see if the couple is compatible?! Of course there are no guarantees, but at least this way they have so much more of a chance!! What is there to lose?! I guess I'll just never understand this.

amother

Orchid

Fri, Apr 17 2015, 10:16 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

For all of your horrified mothers out there who are raising daughters, do you have plans to protect them from this type of pressure when they come into the parsha? How do you plan on standing up to the community and letting your daughter pick her own husband?

Personally, we're going to stay as FAR from the shidduch system as humanly possible, and let Hashem be in charge.

(We'd never be accepted among Chassidim. I'm far too independent, I have problems with authority, and DD has no problem voicing her opinions as loudly as necessary. Very Happy

)

All I ask is that he's Jewish, and that he treats her well. Everything else is negotiable.

The crazy stories here really don't sound like a rabbi issue so much as a parents issue. Sounds like nutso parents who are able to persuade a rav/other important people in the community that applying such pressure and engaging in shenanigans is necessary. And BTW, it's totally possible that the parents are completely misrepresenting the situation (though any rabbi worth the paper his semicha is written on should investigate the whole scenario before jumping to conclusions). My ILs hate me and tried to break us up numerous times. At one point, they claimed daas Torah agreed that this was not a prudent match and had advised them to do everything they could to stop it. Years later, we somehow ended up meeting the rav who had supposedly validated their position, and we realized that they had a) completely misrepresented the situation and b) they had not actually asked for a psak or even specific advice, but simply said, what what you say about a shidduch in XYZ situation, and the rav just said "well, this obviously warrants further investigation, but just off the cuff, I would advise against going through with such a shidduch", and they used that to go around saying that daas Torah told them to break us up. Your daughter will be fine because you've got your head screwed on straight.

Raisin

Fri, Apr 17 2015, 1:34 pm

Marina, I think there is a wide spectrum in chabad. From chareidi style to almost modern orthodox, but most somewhere in between. And each family has their own style. As you acknowledged yourself. My parents in no way pressured any of us to marry anyone we didn't want to. A shidduch was suggested, we met, decided if we liked each other enough to keep on dating, and eventually got married or not. Yes, most lubavitchers date for weeks, not months, and maybe some even make up their mind in under a week.

One of my relatives met a boy, went out a couple of times, was unsure, went away for a week or two, came back and decided to resume dating him and they eventually married.

I'm sure some chabad families pressure their kids to marry someone for ulterior motives, just like I'm sure some waspy type families pressure their kids to marry someone from the right background. (if you marry Elizabeth, we will buy you an apartment on the UES)

Some parents are crazy, nothing to do with frumkiet.

zaq

Fri, Apr 17 2015, 5:19 pm

Call me crazy, call me iconoclastic, call me anything you like (except late for dinner), but IMHO there is something seriously awry when a girl (and I say "girl" because in most cases they are in fact girls rather than women) spends more time selecting her wedding dress than choosing the person she is to marry. Yeah, yeah, "all the research has been done" by the parents--but they are not the ones who are going to have to live with the guy. Does the mom research wedding gowns, bring home exactly one for the dd to consider, and if the dd tries it on three times, she's bought it?

What, exactly, is the rush? Why the need to decide after one date, or three dates for that matter? Surely a decision that will affect the rest of one's life deserves adequate time for consideration. Being forced to make a decision under pressure is a fine way to ensure that a wise decision will NOT be made. I don't know about most people, but I know that when I am pressured to make a decision "before midnight tonight", one of two things happens: either I say "forget this" and walk away because I resent the pressure and would rather do without than give in, or I end up regretting my hasty decision. Seldom are the results of such a forced decision happy--and I'm just talking about a pair of shoes or an appliance, which may be replaced easily enough if they turn out to be duds.

mirror

Sat, Apr 18 2015, 11:07 pm

out-of-towner wrote:

I could be totally wrong about this, but there is a concept of the Tenoyim being Halachically binding. This is why most people do it right before the wedding. However, AFAIK many Chassidic groups do it at the Vort, and so it is not so easy to just break off an engagement. It may be Halachically better just to divorce.

I heard this also.

I know of a Yeshivish couple where the guy was engaged to a girl and there were no Tanoim, and the Rav still told them to get married and get divorced after, but it could be there were different reasons.

This couple got divorced after the wedding and married other people.

dimyona

Sat, Apr 18 2015, 11:23 pm

zaq wrote:

Of course, but these parents don't see it as a decision for their children to make. They take their time to deliberate, and the approval of the bride and groom is just a formality. Chosson and kallah don't really see it as a choice to make either; it's something they have to go through.

amother

Red

Sun, Apr 19 2015, 1:36 am

lifesagift wrote:

I think that these days most parents will let their kids date for longer than they did. For the holocaust survivors, it was often, big deal, I'm a gal, he's a guy, what's not to work (was definitely the case with my set). These days the culture s changing. It's something of a bitochen/ hishtadlis balance.

I agree with this.

I also think there no longer is that desperation to rebuild the generations lost in the holocaust. For the young people today, and their parents, marriage is more about personal fulfillment and having a satisfying relationship with a life partner - in addition to building future doros.

Emotional health has finally gotten more attention in the community, as well.

Bitachon101

Sun, Apr 19 2015, 1:44 am

As a single girl I once met a girl around my age married for a few years. She described how she got engaged to her husband. Basically she was still a high school student, and her parents told her to sit down and talk to this boy at a table for half hour. She is a very talkative bubbly girl so she did. She left the room and was then told mazel tov. She asked why. They said she is a kallah. She said oh that's so exciting!
At the vort she felt so confused about who the vort was for but she smiled and joked about it all. She seemed to be happy years later when I met her but she had such a fun time telling her story as I looked in in pure horror!
You couldn't have paid me to marry a man without my absolute willingness. I dated a guy 11 times and said no so proudly slapping all the pressure in the face when I decided there is no way I could marry the man. Nice guy but not at all for me!
(Shadchan threatened me I'd never get such a good guy and I'll be old and single cuz my reasons were stupid and I'll regret etc... I would've gotten divorced in the first year.) The guy was not for me. I saw it so clearly only once I said no! Before then I was so hounded with pressure from shadchan (my parents had no clue what to think and were like do whatever you want). I said never again will a shadchan pressure me!

amother

Mistyrose

Sun, Apr 19 2015, 9:24 am

And I was married in this system, I was 20 years old, my parents asked me whenever a shidduch came up if there is anything specific that I want checked out, sat me down with the info they gathered and asked me if I want to continue. At the beshow, I met the boy and spoke with him for 3 hours which incidentally sounded like 15 mins to both of us. We were both ready after that, but the only thing my parents 'pressured' me into was that maybe I'm making the decision too hasty and I should meet for a second beshow.....

I told my parents that I don't think it's necessary.... We got engaged and I'm now happily married for more than 5 years......

goes to show that the only stories you hear are of the nutty parents who put pressure..... Btw 90% of my class were beshowed this way and are happy, so these are the stories you don't hear.........