Forced marriages (s/o of All Who Go Do Not Return)

imaima

Sun, Apr 19 2015, 9:32 am

These dating stories are really crazy.
Once a certain boy was really pushed on me. First a shadchanit asked me if I would like to marry a ger. I said no. Then the shadchanit (a couple of months later) showed me a boy on the video and asked if I would like to date him. I didn't like him and said no. A couple of weeks later, a rav called me and offered a shidduch with a certain boy. I agreed. I come to the shidduch and it turns out it is the boy I nixed on the video!! I turned him down after 2 dates. Months later I find out that this boy was a ger! They didn't even tell me that! (Rav and shadchanit were related). I confronted shadchanit and she played dumb "Oh really I forgot to tell you that!"
I was really pissed. Why put both of us through this nonsense if it was clear from the start we are not a good match!

amother

Bronze

Sun, Apr 19 2015, 9:40 am

Another perspective on the subject.

I learned about my dh because he dated my friend first, and it was really serious. They were unofficially engaged, and she told me about him and showed me his picture. I was mildlly impressed but not more, since he was dating the friend.
Their engagement didn't work out though. A bit later, a friend offered a shidduch with a guy from overseas who would call me (I am BT so not going through parents here). I have figured out it was this same guy but even though I was not extremely excited about him, I was apeople-pleaser and decided to give it a try.

He started calling me and was going to come in my town, which took him a couple of months due to other obligations. Once he finally came, we went out the first night and I thought he was cute but not for me. Now, I am still a people-pleaser and feel bad that some is staying in my town for an entire week because of me, and I say no right away. I went out with him on a couple more nights, planning to say No in the end. Took him different places and stuff, we had a lot of fun. In the end, I never found the courage to say No, and kind of liked him more now. In the end I agreed to visit him in his town and we were engaged, and now happily married with several kids.

So I guess, if you were meant to be together, this will happen with or without pressure.

mirah2

Sun, Apr 19 2015, 10:29 am

imaima wrote:

Bit of a tangent, but why were you so against dating/marrying a ger? Was it really just because he was a ger? If so, to assume that you aren't a good match from the start just based on that sounds a bit strange...(I'll keep my mouth shut on what else it sounds like, but it definitely wouldn't fall into the 'forced marriage' category).

imaima

Sun, Apr 19 2015, 10:55 am

mirah2 wrote:

I wasn't really "so against" because I wasn't really dating yet and never gave it a thought. When she asked I spontaniously said no. I met dh pretty quickly so didn't have a chance to reconsider. Maybe if I was dating many boys I would have changed my mind.

mirah2

Sun, Apr 19 2015, 12:33 pm

imaima wrote:

Fine, so it was a spontaneous reaction from someone who hadn't really started to date. It's just that your original post really rubbed me up the wrong way as a giyoret. Please can you think a bit more carefully about how you word this in future, as it makes you come across as just a wee bit prejudiced? Confused

Thanks

imaima

Sun, Apr 19 2015, 1:21 pm

mirah2 wrote:

Thanks

I am not ashamed to admit that I had certain criteria when dating, which meant that someone got excluded. That's kind of like dating works. I am not a gioret and my knee-jerk reaction wqs to date someone like me. I don't think I need to justify myself.

m in Israel

Sun, Apr 19 2015, 1:33 pm

imaima wrote:

I understood that your point was simply that the shadchan totally ignored your very specific requests in a deceptive way. It wasn't an issue of a ger or not per se -- that just happened to be the example. However I do agree that your post could definitely hurt some members here, as it can easily be misunderstood. Especially considering that unfortunately geirim DO face a tremendous amount of discrimination in the shidduch process, I think you might want to consider editing your earlier post.

Sadie

Sun, Apr 19 2015, 1:55 pm

imaima wrote:

I am a giyoret and I definitely had certain criteria that would have disqualified a lot of very nice men, through no fault of their own.
I feel sorry for the guy you dated though, he probably had no idea that he was being constantly thrust at an unwilling woman by his shadchan, I would have been so embarrassed if this had happened to me.
One guy I went out with was not informed that I was giyoret before our date (this was through a SYAS shadchan) It was embarrassing to have to explain in person, since I want to know that the person sitting across from me really wants to be there.
He kept trying to test my Jewish knowledge, even pulling out a chumash and asking me to read from it (I can't) and then making fun of me for all the things I didn't know. He even said "I think if I were on a beit din I wouldn't agree to convert someone who couldn't read Hebrew." It was the worst date I ever went on; a person like that shouldn't be allowed within a hundred ft of a ger, and the kicker was that he wanted to go out again (I said no)
I'm really affected by the stories here about "older" (than 18) BT's and geirim being heavily pressured to marry someone they don't want, because their communities make them feel that no one will ever want them and they should be grateful for anyone that will have them. No one would have ever thrown me a surprise l'chaim but I feel like one of those other stories could have easily been me if I had accepted 2nd class citizen status instead of holding out for the right guy, and most importantly, for me to be ready to marry.

imaima

Sun, Apr 19 2015, 2:16 pm

Sadie wrote:

Good for you. if anyone wanted to rub it in my face how bad I am at something, I would run away too.

I was offered shidduchim when I was like 18 but someone warned me that they want a young girl so they could manipulate her to accept their hashkafa and whatever lifestyle suits them.

amother

Smokey

Sun, Apr 19 2015, 2:22 pm

A BT friend of mine was pressured hardcore into marrying her first husband. The people who dealt with shidduchim or whatever at the seminary we both went to pressured her to accept a date with a guy from the men's yeshiva tied to our seminary, who was older than her (she was mid 20s at the time). After the first date, they told her that she had to accept a second date, she had to agree to engagement, because she was already "too old" to find anyone better, that she was "damaged" from her "wild" past (honestly, from what she told me, it sounded like she had a pretty normal life as a non religious 20-something, she had some boyfriends but nothing I'd remotely call "wild"). She voiced concerns that he was almost 10 years older and divorced already, but they told her that he was such a good learner and she had to settle down or she'd never get married.

They got engaged after 3 dates. The very first frum person she ever went on any dates with. He was abusive to her even in the engagement, but she had her head wrapped around this idea that she was 'damaged' so much that she couldn't see it.

They divorced a bit over a year into the marriage. In that time, there was a lot of verbal and emotional abuse, a lot of threats of abandoning her 5+ months pregnant for a prettier, younger wife. They ended up divorcing, and I think she was extremely damaged by the experience. I think she ended up remarrying, but it's very unfortunate she had to go through any of this.

This was all Chabad. I don't think this is remotely typical of Chabad, so I am not trying to shed a bad light on Chabad in general. I just think it was handled EXTREMELY poorly. I don't get what the end game was for the shadchanim involved. She voiced her concerns and they blew them off. IMO the "blood" is on their hands on this one, I think they knew it wasn't perfect but they don't think the wonderful BT women who come into their seminary are worth anything more than the bottom of the barrel of the men, so that's who they set them up with. Then simply try to tell them that it's their life mission to be a nice jewish mommy and have lots of kids, and all you need to have kids is a man, any man. It's disturbing.

grace413

Sun, Apr 19 2015, 2:54 pm

Sadie wrote:

He kept trying to test my Jewish knowledge, even pulling out a chumash and asking me to read from it (I can't) and then making fun of me for all the things I didn't know. He even said "I think if I were on a beit din I wouldn't agree to convert someone who couldn't read Hebrew." It was the worst date I ever went on; a person like that shouldn't be allowed within a hundred ft of a ger, and the kicker was that he wanted to go out again (I said no)

I'm so sorry you had that experience. What a complete lack of middot on the man's part. A person like that shouldn't be allowed with a hundred feet of anyone!

amother

Plum

Sun, Apr 19 2015, 6:08 pm

The guys don't necessarily have such a great time of it, either. A friend of ours who happens to be a ger was in beis medrash for some time, he was also no longer in his teens but probably late 20s and very strongly pressured to marry a certain girl. I don't know if they pulled one of those "Surprise, you don't know it but you're engaged" kind of things, but they did threaten to throw him out of the beis medrash if he didn't get married. He was so pessimistic about the marriage that he never told anyone he was married till 15 years later. The marriage lasted only a few months and he never remarried. If he didn't want to marry anyone at all or marriage to someone he didn't want soured him on the married state, he wouldn't say. The people who arranged this match probably thought they were doing a good thing but they were wrong.

Tablepoetry

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 4:58 am

I'm sorry. I don't get all these posters angry at the past poster who stated she didn't want a convert.
Don't people always limit who they want to meet with shidduch dating? The whole point, with traditional shidduchim, is to find someone from the same background. Sepharadim seek sepharadim, Ashkenazim look for Ashkenazim, chabad wants chabad, etc.
The whole point is to match like with like, at least culturally. So an American litvish FFB 18 yr old girl, for example, likely will say no to meeting an Israeli Yemenite shasnik. Is that prejudice? Is it any different than saying no to a convert, who likewise was raised in a totally different cultural mileu?
I say this as someone who did not go through the shidduch system, and who married someone with a very different background (culturally, nationally, religiously, etc). Personally, I don't mind if my kids bring home a spouse of whatever background they please, be it American, Russian, Ethiopian, convert, charedi, what not. But.....they need to be aware that choosing someone different than you comes with a lot of complex challenges, challenges I understood the shidduch system was trying to avoid.

Raisin

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 5:17 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

The point of th eshidduch system is not ensure you are set up with someone similar. My siblings were set up on shidduchim (and married) with people from very different backgrounds. Yes, its understandable to want to marry someone similar. But that might be hashkafah or culture or intellectual interests, or similar personalities.

But it works well when you come from a large group. If you come from a tiny group (eg gerim) and can be very difficult, since it means there will be such a limited choice of potential spouses. Plus, some gerim would prefer to marry into a Jewish family so their kids have Jewish relatives.

Tablepoetry

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 5:27 am

Raisin wrote:

The point of th eshidduch system is not ensure you are set up with someone similar. My siblings were set up on shidduchim (and married) with people from very different backgrounds. Yes, its understandable to want to marry someone similar. But that might bevalueafah or culture or intellectual interests, or similar personalities.

But it works well when you come from a large group. If you come from a tiny group (eg gerim) and can be very difficult, since it means there will be such a limited choice of potential spouses. Plus, some gerim would prefer to marry into a Jewish family so their kids have Jewish relatives.

I can understand why some gerim might prefer to marry into a Jewish family. But that's not the point.
Culture is a very all encompassing trait. Honestly, I don't see many charedim marrying people from opposing cultures. I know many, especially chabad, who may marry people from across the world....but ultimately, they are from similar cultures, they were raised with the same values.

etky

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 5:33 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

Essentially I agree with you. It is perfectly reasonable for someone to prefer not to take on the extra baggage that coming from different backgrounds often introduces into a relationship. I considered that aspect myself when I was dating (also not the shidduch system at all). Yet where then does this leave gerim or BT in the shidduch system which, as I understand, is so heavily based on common background, yichus and practicalities and does not afford much leeway for personal chemistry to overide these considerations? Must they only marry other gerim or BT or FFB who for whatever reason are being pressured into "settling"? This seems to be a very difficult position to be in.

Tablepoetry

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 5:48 am

etky wrote:

Oh, I agree completely that it's not fair to gerim (and many other groups). I don't think it's an ideal system. I was just saying that I always thought matching like backgrounds with like was a basic tenet of the shidduch system, not something to be shocked at.