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-> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
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amother
Turquoise
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 Mon, Apr 20 2015, 5:28 pm
My son came home from yeshiva very upset. They Were learning Brachos and had quizzes on it .my son worked very hard for them. Today the principal came in and said that all the boys that got over a certain mark are going on a trip tomorrow to an amusement park. It came out to 10 boys in his class. My son is not one of them.I am so hurt, this child works so hard in yeshiva ,everything comes harder for him but with his own strong and lots of help he does pretty well. I know that not everything is fair, his struggle is one of them. But does that mean only the ones with the strongest brains get the reward? What's with effort? Hard work? Where's recognition for that on the yeshiva end? Maybe if it was one or two boys it wouldn't be that bad, but almost half the class? 
sorry just venting ,this is just so painful for the pple that would understand what I mean.
And if you don't,im really happy for you
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mummiedearest
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Mon, Apr 20 2015, 5:31 pm
I always hated these things when I was a kid. I never got the special trips/prizes/raffle tickets. and I was plenty smart, just didn't test well in certain subjects.
take your son on a trip all by yourself. tell him you're proud of him. make a big deal.
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amother
Turquoise
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Mon, Apr 20 2015, 5:33 pm
| mummiedearest wrote: | I always hated these things when I was a kid. I never got the special trips/prizes/raffle tickets. and I was plenty smart, just didn't test well in certain subjects.
take your son on a trip all by yourself. tell him you're proud of him. make a big deal. |
We do treat him for his efforts,all the time, but you can't compare getting it from yeshiva
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ora_43
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Mon, Apr 20 2015, 5:41 pm
That sounds like an awful idea on the teacher's part for a few reasons. First off because it's not children's business to know each other's grades. And just... lots of reasons. Dividing the class. What you said, too.
Did you tell the yeshiva what you think?
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amother
Turquoise
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Mon, Apr 20 2015, 5:43 pm
| ora_43 wrote: | That sounds like an awful idea on the teacher's part for a few reasons. First off because it's not children's business to know each other's grades. And just... lots of reasons. Dividing the class. What you said, too.
Did you tell the yeshiva what you think? |
I can't decide how to go about this. its coming from the principal.
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animeme
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Mon, Apr 20 2015, 6:19 pm
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I would put in a request that the next incentive-driven program be based on hasmadah. We have this in my son's school. They earn a trip by their parents signing off to their learning an extra amount of time per day/week. Our program allows for some days off as long as there is consistency. Anyone with x number of hours of extra learning/ chazarah at the end of the time span gets a trip.
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oliveoil
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Mon, Apr 20 2015, 8:22 pm
If this is a regular thing, it's probably not the case, but be aware that often the smart kids don't get rewards and certificates because they're so busy giving them to the kids who have to try harder.
I'm absolutely not saying not to reward the kids who work very hard. They definitely should be rewarded. But I remember time after time not getting any of the rewards/certificates simply because school was easy for me and I always did well. Just like it's unfair to reward for good grades without taking into account students who worked hard but didn't do as well, it's also not fair not to reward kids who do study and everything right, just because it's easier for them.
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5mom
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Mon, Apr 20 2015, 9:06 pm
There are two separate things going on here
First, taking a group of kids out of school and treating them better than their peers. That seems educationally and emotionally wrong. Poor midos, in my book.
The second is rewarding smart kids for being smart. Well, it's school. Naturally athletic kids get more playing time in gym, naturally gifted singers get solos in musicals etc. Now, you can insist on equal playing time or stage time or whatever, but at some point, the stars are going to shine. There's a delicate balance between helping children feel good about themselves and refusing to acknowledge talent.
If you have a genius in your class but make him work at everyone else's level, are you teaching him good social skills or squelching his innate abilities? That's a hard call.
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amother
Turquoise
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Mon, Apr 20 2015, 9:19 pm
| 5mom wrote: | There are two separate things going on here
First, taking a group of kids out of school and treating them better than their peers. That seems educationally and emotionally wrong. Poor midos, in my book.
The second is rewarding smart kids for being smart. Well, it's school. Naturally athletic kids get more playing time in gym, naturally gifted singers get solos in musicals etc. Now, you can insist on equal playing time or stage time or whatever, but at some point, the stars are going to shine. There's a delicate balance between helping children feel good about themselves and refusing to acknowledge talent.
If you have a genius in your class but make him work at everyone else's level, are you teaching him good social skills or squelching his innate abilities? That's a hard call. |
Op.The singer gets a solo the athlete gets playing time ...and the genius gets the 100%. I agree that the smart kids should get rewarded.and they do, they receive certificates and prizes. But what does the hard worker get? This project was worked on by the whole class for a while, it wasn't just a perek of chumash.
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5mom
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Mon, Apr 20 2015, 9:30 pm
I agree, if it's a class project, the class as a whole should be rewarded. The current system discourages kids from even trying.
But how do you know that all the kids who got high scores are naturally smart? Maybe some of them just worked harder than your son did.
These things aren't always black and white.
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amother
Turquoise
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Mon, Apr 20 2015, 9:52 pm
| 5mom wrote: | I agree, if it's a class project, the class as a whole should be rewarded. The current system discourages kids from even trying.
But how do you know that all the kids who got high scores are naturally smart? Maybe some of them just worked harder than your son did.
These things aren't always black and white. |
Believe me, if those boys worked harder and got the reward I'm so happy for them. My question I guess is , does tremendous effort get rewarded?
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amother
Emerald
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Mon, Apr 20 2015, 9:59 pm
When I was in school I never became leader of anything, not a head or a coordinator- nothing. I did BH well in my studies but my school didn't reward for that. No prizes or awards for that. Even when I was told I would be a leader for a school function, when they announced it- guess whose name was not called? For anything, even for the role promised. When confronting the teacher in charge I was told that they felt other girls needed a chance to shine yadda yadda I'm sorry. Why were they chosen? I asked outright: grades. Their grades were not nearly as good. But they were chosen for X and Y already this year! Well, sorry. But you said I was going to be it? Uh, um well...... So I am being punished for studying? Doing well?
Yes I am still upset at it. I was never able to explore my other talents, begin to be a leader etc. my self esteem sank. As a mom now I still resent this teacher .
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amother
Turquoise
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Mon, Apr 20 2015, 10:08 pm
[quote="amother"]When I was in school I never became leader of anything, not a head or a coordinator- nothing. I did BH well in my studies but my school didn't reward for that. No prizes or awards for that. Even when I was told I would be a leader for a school function, when they announced it- guess whose name was not called? For anything, even for the role promised. When confronting the teacher in charge I was told that they felt other girls needed a chance to shine yadda yadda I'm sorry. Why were they chosen? I asked outright: grades. Their grades were not nearly as good. But they were chosen for X and Y already this year! Well, sorry. But you said I was going to be it? Uh, um well...... So I am being punished for studying? Doing well?
Yes I am still upset at it. I was never able to explore my other talents, begin to be a leader etc. my self esteem sank. As a mom now I still resent this teacher .[/quote
Did you get admiring looks from your peers?
Did you get admiring looks from staff?
Did you have girls want to study with you?
Did girls want to borrow your notes?
Did you get a good yearbook job?
Did you know all the answers when the teacher tested the class?
That's called getting a chance to shine by me
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amother
Emerald
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Mon, Apr 20 2015, 10:11 pm
| amother wrote: | | Op.The singer gets a solo the athlete gets playing time ...and the genius gets the 100%. I agree that the smart kids should get rewarded.and they do, they receive certificates and prizes. But what does the hard worker get? This project was worked on by the whole class for a while, it wasn't just a perek of chumash. |
The 100 or A doesn't mean much. There isn't the same recognition and praise that the singer or athlete gets. They are told not to boast, share test scores out loud etc that it is almost shameful but definitely not as amazing as it should be to get the 100- out of fear of hurting others. (It's important to teach humility but you do need to allow for recognition). Teachers don't acknowledge the best grades either anymore. Certificates for only good grades aren't given either. We are constantly trying to build up kids who don't do as well but what about EVERY kid? Those who do well sometimes need boosting too. I did.
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5mom
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Mon, Apr 20 2015, 10:15 pm
| amother wrote: | | Believe me, if those boys worked harder and got the reward I'm so happy for them. My question I guess is , does tremendous effort get rewarded? |
What do you want to do - go to their houses to see how much time they are putting in? Get into their heads to see how difficult they find the work? Not everything lends itself to measurement and comparison.
Again, when there's a class project, everyone should share in the reward.
But in general, it's not always true that effort equals achievement. I could practice piano for hours and still never be good, because I just don't have the talent. Should I get a reward? No, I am not good at playing the piano and never will be.
I could sit around brooding over my lack of skill and how unfair it is that I didn't have a starring role in the recital, or I could try to discover my non-musical talents.
We don't all have equal abilities. The best thing we can do for our kids is to open up the options and find a place where they can shine.
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amother
Turquoise
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Mon, Apr 20 2015, 10:18 pm
We don't all have equal abilities. The best thing we can do for our kids is to open up the options and find a place where they can shine.[/quote]
I like that ,thanks
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5mom
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Mon, Apr 20 2015, 10:20 pm
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You sound like a wonderful and concerned mom. Your son is a lucky kid.
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amother
Turquoise
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Mon, Apr 20 2015, 10:23 pm
| 5mom wrote: | | You sound like a wonderful and concerned mom. Your son is a lucky kid. |
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acccdac
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Mon, Apr 20 2015, 10:44 pm
I'm writing this as a teacher not a mother.
I'll have students who get a 70 and are upset and they say "but I studied so hard".
The way school works is we teach information we test and you get a grade to judge your knowledge, and not your effort.
Just because you studied hard doesnt mean you KNOW the information.
I also find that many students say they studied hard, but they studied wrong. Yes there is a right and wrong way to study.
I use the comment section of report cards and "work habits" grade to tell parents that I am aware of their child effort.
I also build extra credit into every test I give so the smart kid in the class can get a 115% and a weaker student can get an 80% or even 90% because they were able to choose an essay question instead of being forced to answer the 1 question I chose to put on the test.
I believe that the school should have had an incentive program and reward for anyone who participates in the program (even if it was mandatory to participate). I do believe that the school should reward those who earned high grades. However, I believe the school should use two methods of testing. There should be a written and oral test. This allows students with different capabilities to show their knowledge. With that said, I dont know if a school trip is a fair reward.
(my children's school does that type of trip for whomever completes the summer gemara/mishnayos optional program. I know that my son did not attempt it his first summer and when he saw 3 boys leaving his class to spend a day and a mini golf/arcades place he did it the following summer.I have no issue with this.)
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amother
Emerald
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Mon, Apr 20 2015, 11:29 pm
[quote="amother"] | amother wrote: | When I was in school I never became leader of anything, not a head or a coordinator- nothing. I did BH well in my studies but my school didn't reward for that. No prizes or awards for that. Even when I was told I would be a leader for a school function, when they announced it- guess whose name was not called? For anything, even for the role promised. When confronting the teacher in charge I was told that they felt other girls needed a chance to shine yadda yadda I'm sorry. Why were they chosen? I asked outright: grades. Their grades were not nearly as good. But they were chosen for X and Y already this year! Well, sorry. But you said I was going to be it? Uh, um well...... So I am being punished for studying? Doing well?
Yes I am still upset at it. I was never able to explore my other talents, begin to be a leader etc. my self esteem sank. As a mom now I still resent this teacher .[/quote
Did you get admiring looks from your peers?
Did you get admiring looks from staff?
Did you have girls want to study with you?
Did girls want to borrow your notes?
Did you get a good yearbook job?
Did you know all the answers when the teacher tested the class?
That's called getting a chance to shine by me |
Nope. I got called teachers pet, teased as a nerd, didn't get a good yearbook job (again, I was not in charge of ANYTHING). Teachers didn't call on me too often as they probably knew that if I raised my hand I knew it so why waste time, let's call on someone else (again I didn't get a public announcement I knew it) Girls wanted to copy my notes, cheat off my homework and then complained when I said "I will show you how I got it but I won't just hand you the answers" (say math class. I spent hours so you could cheat???). I worked incredibly hard-it was not only pure talent as these girls assumed. I paid attention in class, took copious notes, studied all the time. I didn't pass notes in class, or after school hit the mall, hang out or talk on the phone for hours. Yes, I got good grades but felt terrible as I was always overlooked.
I felt "these girls need more time to study. Why wont you give the head job to someone who showed they can handle the schoolwork?" I wanted to be a head so badly!!! I wanted a chance to shine!! I could be editor of yearbook, I could work on the shabbaton, performance, or other functions. I could be chessed head. But NOPE. Never had an opportunity to explore other areas of myself. My one chance- but other girls got them every year, every opportunity (I am thinking of a few right now who were picked multiple times in one year and got "jobs" every year as well. Not exaggerating).
Being BH smart (and working hard too) doesn't always get the same admiration you'd expect.
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