Forced marriages (s/o of All Who Go Do Not Return)

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imasoftov

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 8:51 pm

amother wrote:

SO are you willing to use a shadchan who will pressure you that you can never turn down a shidduch unless you have an "acceptable reason"? Then you too can have a story worthy of this thread! Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't make them an ignorant bigot. Believe me, I had plenty going against me in shidduchim, so I'm glad the very first shidduch turned out to be the winner for me. My background would have put on the automatic reject pile for a lot of people. I don't think that makes those families terrible people.

Since you're arguing with something I didn't say, you'll have to pick up both ends of the discussion.

amother

Forestgreen

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 8:54 pm

LiLIsraeli wrote:

Redheads supposedly have difficult personality traits, such as anger or blood-thirstiness.

This has its source in the gemara which discusses how Eisav was a redhead and loved to hunt and kill, and Dovid Hamelech was also a redhead, but used his desire for blood in a positive manner - waging war against the enemies of Klal Yisrael.

That said, I love redheads and would not forbid my children from marrying one.

OMG do people really think like that? The gemara is less about physical coloring and more about the actual mazal of Esav and Dovid. I've researched it extensively, the red coloring is a simpler and shorter reason that third graders are given.

And my blondie has the short fuse in the family. If people really believe that redheads are bloodthirsty, angry creatures, they must be living under rocks.

Now, I happen not to like red hair and the "typical" redhead appearance. But I have friends who don't like blondes or brunettes either. Should they be forced to date blondes just to say they did?

imasoftov

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 8:55 pm

imaima wrote:

Did you make up this line to pressure people into dating against their will? Oh that's what a forced marriage feels like... That's precisely what the thread is all about.

What did I say that remotely resembles that?

imasoftov

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 8:56 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Actually there are many sources encouraging or even enforcing a beard.
But, then, let's take an orphan. A widow. Just because they are, you are forced into dating them? you are not allowed to want someone never married, for exemple?

If you know for whatever reason some category isn't for you, you don't have to try anyway and then reject the person and disappoint the person (and even less agree out of fear of "mistreating").

These ideas do not help gerim. At all.

WHO THE BLANK IS FORCING ANYONE!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!!?

amother

Brown

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 8:59 pm

Wow. Just wow. As someone who is married to a ger I am offended. And hurt. I am a FFB- and I don't think I settled. I would hate to think others assume that (or I have something unsavory in my past/family to require such "settling"). Happily married. We should not categorize people, as in "all X people I won't date". Take each case individually. I took each case- dated FFB, BT, ger. Different sizes, shapes, hair colors, locations. I didn't care about generalities. I wanted someone with a good relationship with their family, who knew what a stable home looks like etc. NOT generalities that may have no bearing on their case. I know FFBs with worse family backgrounds, who know less about yiddishkeit etc.

LABELS DONT MATTER!

imasoftov

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 8:59 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

Just to play devil's advocate - almost everyone refuses to date widows (unless they are a widower or divorced themselves). Your typical 20-25 year old single man won't date a widow.

Is that oppression?
(personally I think it's problematic, but it isn't that simple)

Just toss the worthless widows into the street. They should be grateful we don't set them on fire like they used to in India.

This thread makes me want to march into the Interior Ministry before the felon takes over and change my religion line to "none".

imasoftov

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 9:13 pm

amother wrote:

But doesn't the Rambam talk about some people not marrying a ger for 10 generations? And there being nothing wrong with this?

Personally, I am Syrian, if I were to marry a ger my entire family would be very uncomfortable because we are all under the takana so for that reason alone, regardless of what I personally might think, I would not have considered a ger when I was dating.

And I don't see anyone here upset about all the Ashkenazim who wouldn't date me because I am Sephardic. Or all the other people who wouldn't date me because my family has no money. Or because I am not pretty. People have criteria. It's the real world.

If someone upthread wrote that they wouldn't marry a Sephardia, let me know, and I'll have at them.

Still, your disgusting takana needs to be eliminated. But that's got nothing to do with your ethnicity. My opinion would be unchanged if that was an Ashkenazi group with such a takana

amother

Olive

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 9:54 pm

amother wrote:

And this also includes generalities. I have relatives who come from very unstable homes who are excellent with relationships and have very stable homes and other relatives who come from wonderful, stable, loving homes who are so abusive CPS took their children away.

imaima

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 3:25 am

imasoftov wrote:

WHO THE BLANK IS FORCING ANYONE!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!!?

SO what exactly did you mean with your ridiculous replies?

No one is mistreating Coca-Cola by buying Pepsi.

No one is mistreating Android by buying Apple.

No one is mistreating Target by shopping in Walmart.

No one is mistreating a convert by marrying a born Jew.

Is it clear enough?

imaima

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 3:34 am

amother wrote:

If you don't think you settled, why are you hurt?
And I didn't have a stable home so I am hurt now too... how dare you have such a criterion??? How does it even matter? Rolling Eyes

amother

Honeydew

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 3:50 am

amother wrote:

in my ashkenazi family 3 people are married to sefardim. hashkafah is more important to us. (no one is married to a syrian...we are likely not Jewish enough for syrians since my mother converted)

In any case it is very different to say: I would rather marry someone from my own group and culture, then I would never marry a sefardi. If someone cam on here and said I was looking for a shidduch, and I specifically did not want to marry a sefardi I can bet 20 people would jump on he for saying that (and rightly so)

imaima

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 3:57 am

amother wrote:

But that's not what I said. I explained myself earlier in the thread and don't think I owe any other explanations or excuses for feeling the way I do.

Volunteer

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 5:01 am

I'm a gioret so here's my take:
If some individual doesn't want to go out with me because of that I might be a little hurt (unless he's a Cohen) but not more so than being rejected because I'm short, wear glasses, live oot, or any other little personal reason. One more to cross off my list. It becomes a problem, however, when this is a prevalent attitude. If I start getting many rejections based on my background, I would start to feel stigmatized. Once it' s no longer a quirky individual preference, but a whole social stigma, that's when "oppression" begins. I can't specify what the critical mass of people is that makes it cross that line, but it is there.

imasoftov

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 5:24 am

imaima wrote:

Funny, I was thinking of clarifying, since a number of people thought I wanted to pressure people, about an analogy that's going around on the internet about tea. I'm not going to link to the original because it has some words that couldn't be printed in the New York Times, but it compares consent to engage in relations to tea. Some people might say, this has nothing to do with us, this is about college students and their filthy premarital relations, but consent is necessary in a marriage, too. For example, despite that you regularly drink tea with your spouse, do not pour a cup of tea down their throat while they're asleep. Or even if they said they wanted tea, you went into the kitchen to make it, and they fell asleep in the meantime.

So, if relations are tea, what's dating? I was thinking of saying a soft drink before I saw your post. A client sits down at the shadchan's office, and the shadchan offers a choice of Coke or Pepsi. Is it OK to choose one over the other? Of course. What's more, if the shadchan is out of her favorite brand and she doesn't want the other, if the shadchan puts pressure on her to drink something she doesn't want to, she should walk out. Before she finds herself married to someone who pours tea down her throat while she's asleep ...

But what if she has a principled objection to one of those brands. Well for one thing, a brand is not a person. It doesn't have feelings. And manufacturers try very hard to make sure that every bottle, can, and fountain serving of their product tastes the same*. It's reasonable to try one Coke, decide you don't like it, and never try another. It's not reasonable to assume that all geirim/Ashkenazim/Sephardim** are the same as all others.

But is it reasonable to reject Coke because you know someone else who tried it and didn't like it? Not in the least. Or maybe you are boycotting Pepsi because you don't like some past or present corporate policy? That could be reasonable, or maybe not. Or you think one or both are bad for you (unless it's an urban legend***). But even if your reason for not drinking Pepsi is unreasonable, it is ok to try to convince you that your reasons are irrational, it's notok to pressure you to drink it.

But even if Coke and Pepsi were people, you still wouldn't be mistreating either of them by choosing the other. You're not mistreating a convert by marrying a born Jew. You're not even mistreating a convert if you find out more about him and decide he's not for you. You're mistreating a convert by refusing to consider marrying him because he is one. Or because you think he'll never be able to fit in. But even so, you still should not be pressured to go out with him.

In jury selection, each side gets a number of peremptory challenges, where they don't need to give a reason and an unlimited number of challenges "for cause" where they need to explain their reason to the judge, who can decline the challenge. Now there's some debate about how to keep peremptory challenges from being used to racially profile jurors, and you can't use race in a for cause challenge. But this isn't a court case. Singles should have unlimited challenges, both peremptory and for cause. And even if their "for cause" would be rejected in court they still shouldn't be pressured to go out with someone they don't want to.

* ignoring the switch from corn syrup to sugar around Pesach ...
** anyplace that I only say converts I also mean baalei teshuva, Ashkenazim, Sephardim, widows, divorcees, children of broken families, I could go on, and eventually will. While there are specific mitzvot about geirim and widows, there are also mitzvot about just plain folks.
*** http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/pesticide.asp

etky

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 6:04 am

I think we're losing sight of the point of this thread which is the problematic aspects of the shidduch system. The issue of gerim and BT illustrates how, by relying primarily on objective labels, at least as an initial filter, the system makes it harder for people in these groups and puts them at a disadvantage. Less rigid, more spontaneous and informal dating systems work better in allowing for personal chemistry to develop and to bring people of different backgrounds together.
People are allowed to have preferences, fears and hesitations about issues that for them might be red flags. In a more relaxed dating system, personal chemistry is given the opportunity to trump and overcome initial reluctance. In the rigid shidduch system this is less apt to occur. Still, people have a right to set their own filters, especially when the process is so intense, quick, and focused, with very little beating about the bush and time alloted to see how the relationship develops.
This said, the concept of chessed is a very important one. It is the very life blood of Jewish society. Perhaps there should be more of an emphasis on this on the societal level in regard to marriage as well.
I once heard R' Meir Lichtenstein, the son of R' Aharon Lichtenstein zt"l who passed away yesterday, give a shiur on Megillat Ruth. What better example of this type of chessed than the story of Boaz and Ruth? The shiur's theme of chessed in relationships was underscored, poignantly, by the fact that R' Meir himself is married to the widow of a rav who was killed in a terror attack in Gush Katif, leaving a wife and four orphans.

Ruchel

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 6:08 am

amother wrote:

I don't know about your family...

But, my father's father was jewish, sefardi and secular. His children were not jewish. My father converted and took on his father's family's minhagim. He did not have trouble with this "takana."

AFAIK it's only a takana for (some?) Syrians. Certainly not Sefardim or Mizrachim as a whole.

imaima

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 8:11 am

Volunteer wrote:

But how can you experience rejections due to this? Those who didn't want to date you, didn't date. Those who rejected you, rejected you for what they saw on a date and not your background.

amother

Olive

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 8:34 am

Ruchel wrote:

AFAIK it's only a takana for (some?) Syrians. Certainly not Sefardim or Mizrachim as a whole.

It's a little more ambiguous now. The last re-affirmation of the takana (about 8-10 years ago?) was signed by American Sefardic Rabbis from all the communities, not just the Syrians. It used to just be Syrians. But now people from other communities are holding by it but some people from those communities (particularly those families who have married with converts before the last re-affirmation takana) are not. Add to this all the Israelis in the US (most of whom are Sefardic) who are worried about American conversions not being accepted by their Rabbis in Israel (whether justified or not), and I could see where it would be a lot harder for a convert to try to date someone Sefardic than someone Ashkenazic. And even outside of dating, I know people who just will find a polite way to not eat from the house of a ger or let their kids go over and play, etc. because they don't know whether they are allowed to consider their conversion acceptable now.

Volunteer

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 8:48 am

imaima wrote:

But how can you experience rejections due to this? Those who didn't want to date you, didn't date. Those who rejected you, rejected you for what they saw on a date and not your background.

I never personally was rejected for a shiduch due to my being a gioret (except by a Cohen, but that's different because it's not up to him). I was once rejected for being short though. I didn't care
.

Chayalle

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 9:25 am

etky wrote:

This said, the concept of chessed is a very important one. It is the very life blood of Jewish society. Perhaps there should be more of an emphasis on this on the societal level in regard to marriage as well.
I once heard R' Meir Lichtenstein, the son of R' Aharon Lichtenstein zt"l who passed away yesterday, give a shiur on Megillat Ruth. What better example of this type of chessed than the story of Boaz and Ruth? The shiur's theme of chessed in relationships was underscored, poignantly, by the fact that R' Meir himself is married to the widow of a rav who was killed in a terror attack in Gush Katif, leaving a wife and four orphans.

I can't like this enough. So interesting and apropos, especially if we consider that Ploni Almoni was the opposite of Boaz, and refused to consider Ruth for societal, stigma reasons.

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