Rewarded for smartness not effort?

amother

Turquoise

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 11:35 pm

amother wrote:

Nope. I got called teachers pet, teased as a nerd, didn't get a good yearbook job (again, I was not in charge of ANYTHING). Teachers didn't call on me too often as they probably knew that if I raised my hand I knew it so why waste time, let's call on someone else (again I didn't get a public announcement I knew it) Girls wanted to copy my notes, cheat off my homework and then complained when I said "I will show you how I got it but I won't just hand you the answers" (say math class. I spent hours so you could cheat???). I worked incredibly hard-it was not only pure talent as these girls assumed. I paid attention in class, took copious notes, studied all the time. I didn't pass notes in class, or after school hit the mall, hang out or talk on the phone for hours. Yes, I got good grades but felt terrible as I was always overlooked.
I felt "these girls need more time to study. Why wont you give the head job to someone who showed they can handle the schoolwork?" I wanted to be a head so badly!!! I wanted a chance to shine!! I could be editor of yearbook, I could work on the shabbaton, performance, or other functions. I could be chessed head. But NOPE. Never had an opportunity to explore other areas of myself. My one chance- but other girls got them every year, every opportunity (I am thinking of a few right now who were picked multiple times in one year and got "jobs" every year as well. Not exaggerating).

Being BH smart (and working hard too) doesn't always get the same admiration you'd expect.

Hey smarty pants!Pity ,you should have been in my school Wink

But seriously, it's enlightening to see another side.

supty

Mon, Apr 20 2015, 11:49 pm

I don't know how old your son is so maybe it's a bit harsh for his age, but I think it's a good lesson for older kids to learn to be prepared for the real world. Hard work doesn't always equal success. You can work harder than anyone else at work and still not get a promotion. Heck, you might even get fired. Doesn't mean you should stop trying. Like others said, find your strengths and focus on that. I do think the school should be more sensitive, as they're dealing with children, but this is just my take on it.

amother

Emerald

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 12:35 am

amother wrote:

Hey smarty pants!Pity ,you should have been in my school Wink

But seriously, it's enlightening to see another side.

Thanks for acknowledging that there is even another side. I got teased, bullied after refusing to give answers/cheat, didn't get any leadership positions (even after being promised it), no rewards etc
And all the while being told I was lucky and shouldn't feel upset at any of this. Lucky.

amother

Turquoise

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 12:46 am

amother wrote:

Just wondering, after all, if you have kids, do you want them being as bright as you?

DrMom

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 12:59 am

I think it is entirely reasonable to give rewards for superior performance. That's how the real world works (most of the time).

Should academically talented children be given bad grades because they didn't try as hard, even though they received excellent grades? Surely that makes no sense.

There should be some place on the report card for he teacher to comment or even grade a child's study habits. In my high school, each course was graded twice: one grade for academic performance (this is the grade that was used when computing one's GPA), and one grade for "attitude" (study habits, class participation, etc.). Perhaps this is a solution you can suggest to your son's yeshiva.

Also, you, as his mother, can devise an award for your son's extra efforts. "I'm so proud of you for studying so hard this week. Let's go out for ice cream, just the two of us."

ora_43

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 2:36 am

5mom wrote:

The second is rewarding smart kids for being smart. Well, it's school. Naturally athletic kids get more playing time in gym, naturally gifted singers get solos in musicals etc. Now, you can insist on equal playing time or stage time or whatever, but at some point, the stars are going to shine.

You're talking about natural rewards for natural talent. The natural reward for natural athletic ability is having a major role on the team, etc. But if naturally athletic kids also got rewards from school for running faster, that'd be a different story.

It's true that in the adult world, all that matters is your ability to get the job done, and not whether your ability comes from nature or from hard work.

But I think that if teachers start teaching that in such a harsh way, so early on, they're going to discourage kids from trying at all. I'm not talking about rewarding struggling kids at the expense of naturally academically talented kids (as previous posters mentioned), just not teaching them "why even bother" at such a tender age.

ora_43

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 2:40 am

5mom wrote:

But in general, it's not always true that effort equals achievement. I could practice piano for hours and still never be good, because I just don't have the talent. Should I get a reward? No, I am not good at playing the piano and never will be.

I could sit around brooding over my lack of skill and how unfair it is that I didn't have a starring role in the recital, or I could try to discover my non-musical talents.

Now imagine that you were stuck in music school for the next ten years, with no choice but to learn the piano because everyone in society knows piano and without it you'll never have a job.

The situation is going to be tough no matter what you do. But wouldn't it help to get the occasional recognition of your effort?

DrMom

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 3:31 am

I wanted to add that although I am not opposed to rewarding accomplishment, I do think it is odd to reward students who did well on a class test with a trip to an amusement park.

I can see if this were some extra-curricular contest (a bracha bee, for example, and the winners got an amusement park trip as a prize), but I think it's odd to say, "whomever scores above 90% on the math test will get a new pair of rollerblades!"

Ruchel

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 5:47 am

Teachers ime grade on what is udner their eyes, how well the paper is. Often it's smartness more than effort. Some DO notice the average student who is average only due to toooonz of efforts. Some unfortunately have classes of up to 40 children/teenagers, and it shows.

It's not good for the smart kid either. One day h'll reach a moment he also needs work and he won't be used to it and will resort to cheating (many average kids also cheat, and struggling ones too, ftr).

We didn't have prizes etc growing up, only grades, but in my times the teachers read the grades outloud and also the top 5 students, if not the whole gradation from first to last. :/

Onisa

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 8:03 am

Maybe this is the right time to give intriduction course to your son, why school and reality are not the same. Tell him that school is an amazing place but it is also machine. The machine can not always make everyone happy and satisyfied. We have to fix this world and maybe he can help fix the school. You can sit down and right a letter to the rabbi, that he understands that working hard does not always result in straight outcome of pleasure and he understands that he is machine so maybe a teacher can share some techniques with him how do better in tests or hint on what is he lacking. I think that talking about it and writing will already bring something far more oroductive and amazing than a trip.

Ema of 5

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 8:43 am

acccdac wrote:

I'm writing this as a teacher not a mother.

I'll have students who get a 70 and are upset and they say "but I studied so hard".

The way school works is we teach information we test and you get a grade to judge your knowledge, and not your effort.

This is where we disagree. Regular, standard testing does NOT test knowledge, it tests performance ability. So many children don't do well on standard tests, but when offered other possibilities they will shine.

Quote:

Just because you studied hard doesnt mean you KNOW the information.

Just because you don't do well doesn't mean you DONT know the information. And just because you did well doesn't mean you know the information. Memorizing for a test doesn't mean you actually know it.

Quote:

I also find that many students say they studied hard, but they studied wrong. Yes there is a right and wrong way to study.

Can you please give some tips (here or in another thread) about the RIGHT way to study?

5mom

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 8:54 am

ora_43 wrote:

Of course it's nice to be rewarded for effort. And it's tough to spend all day in school when academics don't come naturally. But the solution shouldn't be dumbing down the curriculum. It should be expanding into gym and art and drama so that each child finds his talents.
I know a woman who had mild learning disabilities. School was torture. She's a teacher today and she is absolutely amazing because she knows that kids aren't all going to learn the same way, and that even the ones who struggle are valuable, interesting people. We need more teachers like that.

Chayalle

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 8:56 am

amother wrote:

Emerald, we sound pretty similar, and I feel for you. The difference between us is that I did get the editor job in the yearbook....but let me tell you, it was a thankless job. No one really cared about yearbook much in my school - I still felt like the nerd, not much shine....but some teachers really drove me nuts, and it was a big headache.

Now production - those were the jobs. I have a pretty decent voice, but never got a solo......the other girls need to shine.

ora_43

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 9:07 am

5mom wrote:

Nobody is suggesting "dumbing down the curriculum." That has nothing to do with OP's issue.

I don't think helping children discover other talents is a solution to this. It's wonderful and self-esteem-building if a kid who struggles with math and English discovers a talent for athletics or art, but it doesn't change the fact that they need to get through 10+ years of material in subjects they don't have a talent in.

Which is why it's a good idea for teachers to praise students for hard work, when applicable, and to avoid discouraging them by offering prizes that they can never earn.

ora_43

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 9:12 am

On that last point - imagine a parent offering their kid a prize the kid has no way of earning. Like, telling your 5-year-old, "If you can jump high enough to hit the doorframe, I'll take you to see a movie... Oh, you're too short? Tough luck. No movie for you. Your 10-year-old brother can go, though."

It's just cruel.

That's why this is wrong, too. Not because some kids were rewarded without working hard for it, but because some kids can never earn the reward no matter how hard they work.

Chayalle

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 9:13 am

ITA with eema of 3 - testing is about performance. As someone who did well academically as a student, I have always felt that doing well in a particular subject is more about knowing the teacher's testing style.

In my high school, we had a certain teacher who was known for her "murder" tests where even smart kids got lower grades.....I picked up on her testing style, and realized it wasn't about knowing the material, but rather about knowing the type of questions she will ask and studying that information.

And in seminary, there was one teacher that I still hear students go crazy from, years later....and she had the same testing style as that 12th grade teacher....as soon as I picked that up, studying for her tests became that much easier, and I breezed thru those classes.

One of my DD's has a tougher time academically, and I find that I help her perform better by this method. I figure out, early on, what the teacher's style is, and that becomes our focus when we study for tests.

My sister, who is a sought after tutor, agrees with me, says this is her experience as well.

5mom

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 9:15 am

ora_43 wrote:

There's always something. What about the introvert who wants to be left alone but has to sit in class with 25 other kids? He's going to be miserable for years, but prevailing wisdom is that socializing is important.

I agree that excessive rewards are unfair, but discouraging our brightest kids isn't in anyone's interest. And believe me, when grades are subordinate to effort, smart children will tune out.

DrMom

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 9:22 am

ora_43 wrote:

Perhaps you are underestimating the OP's child with this analogy? A short 5-year old cannot simply jump and hit a doorframe. But most children can be taught studying techniques which can help them do well on an age-appropriate test in school.

Let's not solve the problem by simply lowering expectations.