Rewarded for smartness not effort?

Scrabble123

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 11:05 am

JAWSCIENCE wrote:

Who said everyone has to be the same or that good grades should not be rewarded? I said that everybody has a right to keep their grades to themselves. There are ways to reward good grades without divulging the grades of others. When you make a cut off for a prize you automatically divulge that everyone not rewarded got below that cut off. How would you like it if everyone got to see your financial info? Everybody is not the same financially, nor are they entitled to be. I would still bristle at the idea that my financial info should be public. Many children feel that same private feeling about their grades. You are lucky you are not one of them, but they are out there and they have a right to not have their entire class know they got below a 90. For some kids that is akin to a public shaming. Rewarding those who excell should not involve shaming those who don't.

The example of your ninth grade teacher makes me wonder. The sticker was totally worthless, you did not need it. Yet you still wanted it. Why? If this reward had any value above a "great job" or other acknowledging comment from the teacher, it must be because it was a public sign of getting over a certain grade. Which in itself contradicts what you say about it not changing anyones feelings (something you could never know btw, because you are not privy to everyones inner thoughts). It clearly meant something to have everyone know you got above a 90. You were a grade of mentschlich girls who did not treat anyone differently based on their grade, but that doesn't mean the value of the sticker was not the public acknowledgement of superiority over those without it. Nor does it mean it did not change anyones view of themselves. Plus it is not strange that something that might be OK for a group of high school girls is not OK for a group of elementary school boys.

There is nothing wrong with rewarding academic excellence. I support that. What I find distasteful is revealing the failings of other students. And this is coming from someone who would have merited every trip and sticker because I consistently scored one of the best, if not the best, scores in the class and was often not given other privileges to "give some who doesn't do well academically a chance" ( a concept I find distasteful as well). I never told anyone my grade. It was none of their business. I found it weird when people compared or asked each other.

Here's an example form my life, about how much some people value their academic privacy. I go to an ivy league medical school, so you can imagine my classmates are not exactly academic slackers. Well, we had a session to discuss our feelings about medicine and other life stresses recently and somebody said she never tells her parents what she got on a test or her licensing exams or if she has been nominated for an award because she feels those scores are personal. What if it is below what she wanted? What if they don't get what a big deal it is? Others chimed in that they too feel this way because they have always done so well and so much public lauding has lead them to be fearful of revealing grades. These people have grades that most people (even those in other medical schools) would envy, yet they feel they are private and would bristle at the thought of something that revealed they were above or below a certain cut off. OTOH while they aspire to win the award given to the top 5 students in the class, nobody felt that bad about not getting it because it doesn't reveal how they did, it simply says that in an incredibly gifted group they were not the top student.

Warning: My response is all over the place. If you are able to follow it, then I guess you should be rewarded Smile

Actually, I totally get the academic privacy thing. I'm very much like that. Still, a teacher has a right to reward students, even if it makes me uncomfortable (as long as it is done within the realms of normal and not "distastefully revealing the failings of other students.")...... I don't have to attend the trip, but the teacher is allowed to offer it. Also, there is no way to reward someone for a grade without making it known that others did not get that grade: that revelation is in itself not distasteful, as you explained above.

I do not believe that the sticker had anything to do with superiority - it was simply a "good job" and had absolutely no other value. Maybe those with an unhealthy understanding of success and their accomplishments took it as a sign of "a representation of their superiority", but that would indicate that that individual needed more understanding and explanation as to what actual success is and its value. Obliviously it meant that you achieved a "superior" grade, but that does not mean that you are "superior," and a discussion of the nuances involved would require way too much time and space for the internet, but I trust that you'll understand what I mean.

JAWSCIENCE wrote:

OTOH while they aspire to win the award given to the top 5 students in the class, nobody felt that bad about not getting it because it doesn't reveal how they did, it simply says that in an incredibly gifted group they were not the top student

This example is appropriate, and it is pretty much what I feel with regards to elementary and high school as well. It's the attitude that I meant should exist in children of all ages and in the classroom as well...........

JAWSCIENCE wrote:

I agree with this. Not everybody should get the same reward. You just have to think about how to give the awards in a sensitive and intelligent matter.

I agree with you. I apologize if that did not come across from the posts. I was responding more to the concept of the thread rather than to the specific situation. I really do not have an opinion on the OP's particular situation besides the fact that she can use this experience to teach her son a healthy sense of self, success, knowledge, etc. etc. I also do not understand why an amusement park is an appropriate reward for an academic setting, but that is for a separate conversation.

amother

Emerald

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 12:55 pm

amother wrote:

Just wondering, after all, if you have kids, do you want them being as bright as you?

Do I get a choice? I accept my child no matter their abilities. If they need tutors, extra help or enrichment- I will do my utmost to help them achieve their best. I will, though, pick a school that doesn't penalize for excellence.

amother

Emerald

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 1:03 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Emerald, we sound pretty similar, and I feel for you. The difference between us is that I did get the editor job in the yearbook....but let me tell you, it was a thankless job. No one really cared about yearbook much in my school - I still felt like the nerd, not much shine....but some teachers really drove me nuts, and it was a big headache.

Now production - those were the jobs. I have a pretty decent voice, but never got a solo......the other girls need to shine.

At least you had it for seminary/college applications. But yeah, if I got that job I probably would have been driven nuts too for zero thanks. But at least when it was announced I would feel like "part of the kids with jobs" and not the nerd. Like you, I so wanted a production job. But obviously I "didn't need it".

amother

Seagreen

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 5:53 pm

OP, I think that's terrible (and I would DEFINITELY complain)

To those who say that this is real life, I disagree.

I always tell my kids that Hashem made everyone with different strengths, but the ones who succeed in real life are those who work the hardest.

People who are successful are those with initiative, drive, passion, healthy self-confidence and good people skills. Being a good student is a very narrow, specific skill that is almost useless outside of an academic setting.

(Who are the entrepreneurs, the heads of organizations, the movers and shakers? Doubtful that they were mainly the "top" students)

OP, I'm really sorry your son has to deal with this Sad

seeker

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 8:32 pm

I didn't read all 4 pages of this thread, but did anyone mention yet that a kid can be graded for improvement, not just measured against other kids? Why does it have to be reward for everyone who got above 90% on a standard test, when you could reward everyone who beat their own record by, say, 20%? For example, if it's a brachos/pesukim/mishnayos-memory-contest-thing, then the kids who knew 10 the first month and broke their brains to learn 12 the next month meet the goal. The kids who knew 40 the first month meet their goal if they learn 48 the next month. Everyone gets challenged, everyone has a chance to succeed, no one has to know what anyone else got. Obviously the details would need work but I think this would be the ideal. Kids should be motivated (and usually are) to beat their own best rather than compete against others.

amother

Sienna

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 8:36 pm

In the school I went to, you weren't rewarded for brains or effort. You were rewarded if your parents were rich and gave a big donation to the school. Those were the people who got all the honors, lead roles, prizes etc.

amother

Turquoise

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 8:39 pm

amother wrote:

Hey!

can I go to your school? That was actually my only redeeming factor, and it didn't help much

acccdac

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 8:57 pm

amother wrote:

My son came home from yeshiva very upset. They Were learning Brachos and had quizzes on it .my son worked very hard for them. Today the principal came in and said that all the boys that got over a certain mark are going on a trip tomorrow to an amusement park. It came out to 10 boys in his class. My son is not one of them.I am so hurt, this child works so hard in yeshiva ,everything comes harder for him but with his own strong and lots of help he does pretty well. I know that not everything is fair, his struggle is one of them. But does that mean only the ones with the strongest brains get the reward? What's with effort? Hard work? Where's recognition for that on the yeshiva end? Maybe if it was one or two boys it wouldn't be that bad, but almost half the class? Crying

sorry just venting ,this is just so painful for the pple that would understand what I mean.
And if you don't,im really happy for you

I'm not sure if you answered this before (I have read the whole thing but there is a lot of back and forth). Was this a grade curriculum based unit or a unit that the school was working on?

On a completely different note of whether or not the school was right in their actions....you later mention that your son studied daily for 2 weeks.....do you feel he knew the information? What did he receive on the test? Do you feel that his score corresponds to (what you feel is) his knowledge of the subject? If you feel the score does not match you need to follow up on which of these three things happened....
1) the test didnt test you son the same way you were testing him.
2) the test did not properly test on brachos
3) if the first two arent an issue, does he perform well on other memorization type tests?

If the answer to #3 is no, and this is a common occurrence that he studies and does not perform proportionately, then you should consider getting your son tested. worst case scenario you waste 2-4 hours of your life and a day or two off from work (assuming you work)/a day or two of hiring a babysitter (assuming you are a sahm) and you are told your son is a normal 8 year old student. I know this may sound weird but, "best case scenario", you save your son from years of heartache and you find out that he needs help with recalling or memorization and he can learn how to succeed in school instead of growing up to feel like a failure. I am not suggesting that your son SHOULD be tested, I dont know him. I'm asking YOU to think about whether or not this is an isolated occurrence or if it is happening more often than it should.

Like I said previously, I am a teacher. I teach 8th grade and I am asked to fill out information about 8th grade students and their performance or behaviors in class. I got upset that the school is waiting so long to identify students who need testing, and I wanted to know where the crack is in the system. I was annoyed so I once asked the administration why it takes the school until 8th grade for a student to be identified and for paperwork to begin. They responded by saying, it doesnt start in 8th, it starts much earlier but parents wont test when we ask, they say stuff like "oh s/he is only in the 3rd grade" or "oh s/he is just immature s/he'll grow out of it".

Its almost like when we take our kids to the doctor knowing they're going to tell us "oh its just a virus, when the fever has been gone for 24 hours they can go back to school. There is nothing to do for it just keep them comfortable". We take our kids anyways because we know that for that slight chance that its not a virus but strep or ear infection we should know and treat it properly.

amother

Turquoise

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 9:05 pm

Tested?! Chas vshalom!!
Just kidding! My son has been tested since he's 4. BH with loads of the right help he is doing well in general. Memory is still his weakness.
I appreciate your response and I agree with you. Poor children that don't receive the help that's at their disposal.

Emotional

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 9:26 pm

5mom wrote:

What do you want to do - go to their houses to see how much time they are putting in? Get into their heads to see how difficult they find the work? Not everything lends itself to measurement and comparison.

Again, when there's a class project, everyone should share in the reward.

But in general, it's not always true that effort equals achievement. I could practice piano for hours and still never be good, because I just don't have the talent. Should I get a reward? No, I am not good at playing the piano and never will be.

I could sit around brooding over my lack of skill and how unfair it is that I didn't have a starring role in the recital, or I could try to discover my non-musical talents.

We don't all have equal abilities. The best thing we can do for our kids is to open up the options and find a place where they can shine.

But then you have the option to drop the piano, which you'll never master anyway if you don't have talent.
School is not optional.

amother

Powderblue

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 5:51 am

amother wrote:

I disagree. People who work the hardest are not always the most successful. You're right that entrepreneurs are not necessarily the smartest, but that doesn't mean that everyone who works hard will be successful. As a personal example, my father works harder than anyone I know. Literally stays up all night working and is college educated as well. Yet he struggles a lot financially, and I would not call him particularly successful. I think you're doing a disservice to your children by teaching them that if they work hard they'll be successful. So many other things go into success, such as personality, people skills, connections, etc. You may be setting them up for disappointment.

5mom

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 6:00 am

Emotional wrote:

But then you have the option to drop the piano, which you'll never master anyway if you don't have talent.
School is not optional.

Yes, kids are stuck in school. But so long as the school values them as complete people (and does not do nasty things like only taking some kids on trips) they will be fine. There are plenty of adults who didn't get straight A grades who aren't scarred by school. And plenty of class brains who would give anything to be popular.

Scrabble123

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 6:23 am

Emotional wrote:

But then you have the option to drop the piano, which you'll never master anyway if you don't have talent.
School is not optional.

Mastering a skill is not solely based on talent. There are two types of "masters." 1. Those with an inborn talent who were given the ability to nurture and develop the talent into a true skill, and 2. Those who were exposed to the skill and developed it appropriately. You can create a dancer, and you can be born a dancer, but you will never become a dancer if you do not have the commitment and are not exposed to proper technique when appropriate.

amother

Seagreen

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 6:27 am

amother wrote:

I didn't say ONLY hard work; I said "initiative, drive, passion, healthy self-confidence and good people skills". And of course there's a mazal / hashgacha element as well.

The point is not, If you work hard, you're guaranteed success. The point is that school is only a very small part of life, and success as a student has little to do with success in life.

Scrabble123

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 6:30 am

amother wrote:

Not in and of itself, but there are plenty of opportunities for children to be geared into learning successful life skills in school. They can learn about normal considerations taken into account when making decisions, about trust and friendship, about feeling good with another's success, about determination, about compromise, about setting goals, about their own talents, about others' emotions and reactions, etc. etc. etc. It is you as a parent who has the choice to incorporate what you feel are most important for life into that school setting. I agree that school is not the only say in success, but it is a chance to impact that success in other ways, and unfortunately, to also hinder it if not approached in a healthy, constructive manner.