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Do Gdolim have a new approach towards the Agunah crisis?
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Mevater




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 24 2015, 11:35 am
Just thinking... I wonder what most Gdolim are thinking (and planning on doing for the future) about R' Epstein's approach to the Agunah crisis.

1-Do most Rabbonim today think R' Epstein was doing the right thing and nobly taking matters into his own hands and dealing harshly with recalcitrant husbands to try to free these women, or do they think what R' Espstein did was wrong and sadly the women have to remain chained?

2-Do Gdolim have any new approach to dealing with recalcitrant husbands, because I dont think anyone will be doing what R' Epstein seems guilty of, any more.
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self-actualization




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 24 2015, 12:00 pm
I think this is the most embarrassing part of Judaism, hands down. I work primarily with non-Jews and any time this comes up in conversation they are shocked and say things like - wow, that's gotta change. I am very frustrated with what an easy time people have making loopholes, even in my lifetime, for all kinds of things and now even the "Kosher Switch" etc, but when it comes to women I have seen the issue shrugged off, and rabbis say - Don't rock the boat. Okay but what happens when it chas v'shalom happens to your daughter?
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Mevater




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 24 2015, 12:24 pm
self-actualization wrote:
I think this is the most embarrassing part of Judaism, hands down.


+1000000

Certainly one of the most common causes of mockery of Judaism.

Es Laasos LaHasham Heferu Sorasecha?!
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STMommy




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 24 2015, 12:44 pm
This has been bothering me tremendously - my worry that there will be reluctance among rabbanim to do anything to help agunos now. Where is the outcry of the Rabbonim to say, here's what we offer as the alternative to illegal activity? Where is the gadol to say, we need to try something new because the system is broken?
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 24 2015, 12:51 pm
Mevater wrote:
Just thinking... I wonder what most Gdolim are thinking (and planning on doing for the future) about R' Epstein's approach to the Agunah crisis.

1-Do most Rabbonim today think R' Epstein was doing the right thing and nobly taking matters into his own hands and dealing harshly with recalcitrant husbands to try to free these women, or do they think what R' Espstein did was wrong and sadly the women have to remain chained?


Not that I can speak for all rabbanim, but the ones with whom I've spoken think that what Epstein did was absolutely wrong. Not because it's illegal or creates a Chillul Hashem, but because it was not justified al pi halacha and telling women that they can remarry with an invalid get is a terrible thing to do.
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Mevater




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 24 2015, 1:15 pm
goodmorning wrote:
Not that I can speak for all rabbanim, but the ones with whom I've spoken think that what Epstein did was absolutely wrong. Not because it's illegal or creates a Chillul Hashem, but because it was not justified al pi halacha and telling women that they can remarry with an invalid get is a terrible thing to do.


OK, thats what Rabbonim feel Rabbonim SHOULD NOT do, but what do Rabbonim feel Rabbonim SHOULD do? Women should just live with it?
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 24 2015, 1:27 pm
Mevater wrote:
OK, thats what Rabbonim feel Rabbonim SHOULD NOT do, but what do Rabbonim feel Rabbonim SHOULD do? Women should just live with it?


The words "when there's a rabbinic will, there's a halachic way" must be of the most damaging sentences to the way that we think about halacha and the halachic process.

In His infinite wisdom, Hashem decreed that a married woman may marry another man only if she is released from her marriage through either death of her husband or a valid divorce. He further decreed that in order for a divorce to be valid, it must be given freely and willingly by the husband and that coercion invalidates the divorce.

The rabbanim did not create this problem. What do you want them to do to solve it? In the vast majority of cases, their hands are tied.

My heartstrings are not exempt from the collective tearing at the plight of women being left agunos of years at the mercy of often disgusting human beings. I don't claim to have any understanding as to why Hashem set up His system like this. Then again, I don't claim to have any understanding as to why He set up any of the rest of His system the way He did. But I do believe that all that He does is just even if it runs contrary to our contemporary "moral" system.

כִּי-יְשָׁרִים דַּרְכֵי יְהוָה, וְצַדִּקִים יֵלְכוּ בָם, וּפֹשְׁעִים, יִכָּשְׁלוּ בָם.
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Mevater




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 24 2015, 1:32 pm
goodmorning wrote:
The words "when there's a rabbinic will, there's a halachic way" must be of the most damaging sentences to the way that we think about halacha and the halachic process.

In His infinite wisdom, Hashem decreed that a married woman may marry another man only if she is released from her marriage through either death of her husband or a valid divorce. He further decreed that in order for a divorce to be valid, it must be given freely and willingly by the husband and that coercion invalidates the divorce.

The rabbanim did not create this problem. What do you want them to do to solve it? In the vast majority of cases, their hands are tied.

My heartstrings are not exempt from the collective tearing at the plight of women being left agunos of years at the mercy of often disgusting human beings. I don't claim to have any understanding as to why Hashem set up His system like this. Then again, I don't claim to have any understanding as to why He set up any of the rest of His system the way He did. But I do believe that all that He does is just even if it runs contrary to our contemporary "moral" system.

כִּי-יְשָׁרִים דַּרְכֵי יְהוָה, וְצַדִּקִים יֵלְכוּ בָם, וּפֹשְׁעִים, יִכָּשְׁלוּ בָם.


All true, but doesnt prevent Rabbonim from introducing some kind of Halachically permissible system where leaving a woman an Agunah will be much rarer. At least seriously trying.
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self-actualization




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 24 2015, 1:34 pm
Reply to goodmorning:

You are technically correct in what you post, but on a practical level I am so jaded by "the system" that I just want to say, BALONEY.
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 24 2015, 2:03 pm
Mevater wrote:
All true, but doesnt prevent Rabbonim from introducing some kind of Halachically permissible system where leaving a woman an Agunah will be much rarer. At least seriously trying.


So what do you have in mind?
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 24 2015, 2:34 pm
In the MO world the three part prenup is being promoted.it won't serve all issues but is a great start!

I disagree with the view presented here that this is just how Hashem created the system. Hashem allows people to make all sorts of cruel and unethical decisions, that doesn't mean it's ok for men to deny their wives a get. The community needs to ostracize them and treat them as sinners. they are violating " veahvta lareicha kamocha" in the most literal sense.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 24 2015, 2:52 pm
This is a really thorny issue. As is mamzerus.
On a grassroots level we can start by raising mentschen who, if their marriages don't work out, would never DREAM of doing this. And enforcing serious, and legal in secular courts, communal sanctions.
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bruriyah




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 24 2015, 3:52 pm
tichellady wrote:
In the MO world the three part prenup is being promoted.it won't serve all issues but is a great start!

I disagree with the view presented here that this is just how Hashem created the system. Hashem allows people to make all sorts of cruel and unethical decisions, that doesn't mean it's ok for men to deny their wives a get. The community needs to ostracize them and treat them as sinners. they are violating " veahvta lareicha kamocha" in the most literal sense.


Yes, the prenup is a good start.

Why are the Haredi rabbonim not on board with making it standard for every couple getting married to sign a prenup, like some MO rabbis?

As for this situation being the way it is because of "Hashems infinite wisdom", there are plenty of cases where halachic loopholes have been used to avoid situations that are difficult: Some examples: heter iskah that allows for ribis, selling chametz, and I'm sure many of you can think of others.

Also, is should be noted that the agunah problem has been tackled on some level at one point in history. In the times of the neveim, before a man went to war, he would give his wife a "get krisus" which meant that if he did not return from war, she was automatically divorced. I would assume that at that time in history, get refusal was not a big problem, but men dissapearing during war was. The rabbis of the time didn't say: "Oh well, that's too bad, we feel terrible for the women, but that's just the way it is, Hashem in His infinite wisdom declared that things be this way..."

Instead, they got around the problem with the "get krisus". Well, it's time for today's rabbis to do the same and find ways to deal with get refusal.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 26 2015, 9:12 am
Bruriyah, you raise an interesting point about get krisus. Apparently it was used until fairly recently and rabbanim would have preferred it continued. I can't remember who and where I read this.
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 26 2015, 10:10 am
bruriyah, I have not said that there is never a halachic way. Just that the possibility of there being a way is not guaranteed.

The problem with fixing the agunah crisis is that it boils down to the question of how you can force someone to do something voluntarily. Since that statement is by definition oxymoronic, solving it poses a great difficulty.

A variety of approaches has been thought of or tried but again, the very nature of this problem makes finding a solution difficult. For example, the legal route was tried in the NY State Get Law, but I know a number of rabbonim who think that a get given in light of that law is considered a get me'useh. In fact, I know of (at least) one NY Beis Din that requires both spouses to sign a waiver of any rights afforded to them by the Get Law, before beginning the get process.

The BDA prenup is another example of such a solution. While I certainly can't speak for all rabbonim, I again know of some who consider gittin compelled by the prenup to be a get me'useh. They are certainly not trying to make it standard for couples who get married!

(Another type of agunah problem that we have today is of husbands who are alive but in a persistent vegetative state, or the like, and are incapable of giving a get. There was a recent tragic story of a woman in Tzfas whose husband had been in a coma for 7 years. The Tzfas Beis Din combined a number of innovative approaches to retroactively annul the marriage and to allow the Beis Din to give the wife a get on behalf of the husband ["zikkui"]. Unfortunately, many rabbonim disagree with the grounds for that psak and get and consider the wife an eishes ish.)
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 26 2015, 10:31 am
goodmorning wrote:
bruriyah, I have not said that there is never a halachic way. Just that the possibility of there being a way is not guaranteed.

The problem with fixing the agunah crisis is that it boils down to the question of how you can force someone to do something voluntarily. Since that statement is by definition oxymoronic, solving it poses a great difficulty.

A variety of approaches has been thought of or tried but again, the very nature of this problem makes finding a solution difficult. For example, the legal route was tried in the NY State Get Law, but I know a number of rabbonim who think that a get given in light of that law is considered a get me'useh. In fact, I know of (at least) one NY Beis Din that requires both spouses to sign a waiver of any rights afforded to them by the Get Law, before beginning the get process.

The BDA prenup is another example of such a solution. While I certainly can't speak for all rabbonim, I again know of some who consider gittin compelled by the prenup to be a get me'useh. They are certainly not trying to make it standard for couples who get married!

(Another type of agunah problem that we have today is of husbands who are alive but in a persistent vegetative state, or the like, and are incapable of giving a get. There was a recent tragic story of a woman in Tzfas whose husband had been in a coma for 7 years. The Tzfas Beis Din combined a number of innovative approaches to retroactively annul the marriage and to allow the Beis Din to give the wife a get on behalf of the husband ["zikkui"]. Unfortunately, many rabbonim disagree with the grounds for that psak and get and consider the wife an eishes ish.)


And yet it seems like many rabbis find loopholes for men to remarry under many of the same sticky situations.

I love bruriahs post. I'm concerned that the reason that many rabbis won't accept the bda prenup is simply because it originated with mo rabbis.
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 26 2015, 10:37 am
PinkFridge wrote:
Bruriyah, you raise an interesting point about get krisus. Apparently it was used until fairly recently and rabbanim would have preferred it continued. I can't remember who and where I read this.


It was used until fairly recently (as recently as World War II!) for situations in which the agunah problem was that of a husband MIA, presumed dead. That is a very different problem than that of a husband who refuses to give a get, and continued use of this get formulation would be of no avail at all.
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 26 2015, 10:48 am
dancingqueen wrote:
And yet it seems like many rabbis find loopholes for men to remarry under many of the same sticky situations.

I love bruriahs post. I'm concerned that the reason that many rabbis won't accept the bda prenup is simply because it originated with mo rabbis.


The situation of man remarrying without the death/divorce of his first wife has a very different halachic status than that of a woman doing the same. The latter is forbidden mid'Oraisa; the former is forbidden as a result of a cherem. Those are completely different halachic scenarios. (And of course, the cherem was created with "built-in" loopholes so it doesn't take much ingenuity to find them.)

The BDA prenup has a longer history (not entirely MO) that is not worth going into here. Suffice it to say that at least the chareidi rabbanim whom I know are not avoiding its use because it was created by MO rabbis.
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rednavy




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 26 2015, 11:50 am
If men needed a get to leave a marriage this issue would've been resolved before even one case of a locked-down husband could happen. It would be as 'hot' a topic today as goring oxen.

Very reasonable solutions have been presented for stuck women, but what action has been taken? And then, what conclusion results other than that the idea of agunos is not threatening enough to the powers that be to actively make a change.
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amother
Yellow


 

Post Sun, Apr 26 2015, 12:40 pm
goodmorning wrote:


In His infinite wisdom, Hashem decreed that a married woman may marry another man only if she is released from her marriage through either death of her husband or a valid divorce. He further decreed that in order for a divorce to be valid, it must be given freely and willingly by the husband and that coercion invalidates the divorce.

back when we had a Besdin that was a real Besdin with real legal authority, it would give the recalcitrant husband malkos until he agreed to give a get "of his own free will" and it was not considered coercion. The malkos were punishment for violating the law, refusing to give a get where halacha requires it. There are many situations in which halacha REQUIRES a man to divorce his wife if she demands it. One of these is if he makes her life unbearable in some way, such as developing a repulsive physical condition or habit that his wife finds it impossible to live with, or engaging in a trade that gives him an offensive odor that she can't stand. Being physically or verbally abusive also comes under the rubric of making her life unbearable. If he is a "mored" and refuses her conjugal rights, if he forces her to violate taharat hamishpacha, if she wants to move to EY and he refuses, he MUST give her a get. There are many others, these are just a few examples. If he refuses to do so, the Besdin has the authority to give him malkos as long as he continues to violate the law. Unfortunately, today's Besdin has no such legal authority.
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