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Anyone outside of EY keep yoshon?
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 28 2015, 12:38 pm
Bruria wrote:
Yes we keep yoshon. In the US it's very easy, most heimish brands will say kemach yoshon on their packages, so it's much easier than you think, plus the guide has so many products listed!


Actually, this is less the case than you'd think. (Mainly, I think, because "heimishe" brands are usually targeted at Chassidim who tend not to be makpid on yoshon as a whole.) There are a lot of products that are branded as pas Yisroel but not yoshon (and some heimeshe hashgachos that won't even give a hashgacha on the yoshon status of a product!).
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Bruria




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 28 2015, 7:59 pm
goodmorning wrote:
Actually, this is less the case than you'd think. (Mainly, I think, because "heimishe" brands are usually targeted at Chassidim who tend not to be makpid on yoshon as a whole.) There are a lot of products that are branded as pas Yisroel but not yoshon (and some heimeshe hashgachos that won't even give a hashgacha on the yoshon status of a product!).

Interesting that you say that, maybe it's just where I shop, where most products are yoshon.
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 28 2015, 10:51 pm
I discussed it with an educated individual. He said that yashan has to do with galus (not necessarily ch''l) and that it is a machlokes achronim where the Bach says that it is not mandatory. His father, who is a respected dayan said that we held like the Bach because it was very very very difficult to keep yashan, but that he does keep yashan and feels that it is easier to keep today even though his community is not machmir on yashan. Also, he mentioned that cholov yisroel may be a derabanon, but discussed how many authorities today have a deroisadig issue with the needled cows which we're not going to get into in this thread and of which I do not really have a personal opinion on. I just believe that people should follow the opinion of their Rav and community and respect other's Rabonim and communities.
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 28 2015, 11:25 pm
Scrabble123 wrote:
I discussed it with an educated individual. He said that yashan has to do with galus (not necessarily ch''l) and that it is a machlokes achronim where the Bach says that it is not mandatory. His father, who is a respected dayan said that we held like the Bach because it was very very very difficult to keep yashan, but that he does keep yashan and feels that it is easier to keep today even though his community is not machmir on yashan. Also, he mentioned that cholov yisroel may be a derabanon, but discussed how many authorities today have a deroisadig issue with the needled cows which we're not going to get into in this thread and of which I do not really have a personal opinion on. I just believe that people should follow the opinion of their Rav and community and respect other's Rabonim and communities.


I am unaware of any source that contends that chodosh in E"Y is muttar b'zman hazeh (I.e. in galus). Can you share your source?

I find it rather amusing to hear that chodosh in chul is referred to as a "machlokes acharonim." The mishna paskens "hachodosh assur min haTorah bichol makom!" (chodosh is assur mid'Oraisa in all places [even chul]). This has been the halachic consensus through major Rishonim (Rif, Rosh, Rambam) and finally paskened l'halacha by the Tur and Shulchan Aruch.

The Taz offers a single dissenting opinion in saying that due to the sha'as hadchak of his times, when people would starve without grain, one may say that chodosh is not applicable in chul. The Magen Avraham and Aruch HaShulchan offered a different rationale -- also out of desperation -- in saying that even though chodosh is assur in chul, it is only assur in countries "near" Eretz Yisroel. The Bach opined that chodosh is assur in chul but offered a hetter of grain grown by non-Jews (argued against by the Shach, Taz, Gra, Pnei Yehoshua, and Aruch HaShulchan, among others).

Presenting this as a "machlokes acharonim" does a disservice to the halachic process. The dissenting opinions were offered out of extreme desperation and the very real risk of starvation. The opinions are contrary to the mishna (in the case of the Taz) and Rishonim. Whether it is now "minhag Yisroel" to be meikil on chodosh in chul is debatable, but to present this as a machlokes where the Taz/Bach are equal in weight to the vast vast majority of opinions that hold otherwise is misleading.

(I am not saying anything about the Cholov Yisroel vs. yoshon discussion.)
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 28 2015, 11:38 pm
I'm sorry if you considered that misleading. I think that it is pretty much understood that the majority of opinions held that it was a deroisa'dig requirement, and that it was clear that we have relied on that Bach because it used to be very very very hard to keep yashan (as you said, people would starve, especially since diets were different than today). The point was that the concept of a machlokes is not "chadash" and is actually "yashan" lol (b/c HY was saying it's contemporary...) I'm sure you know about the year just a few years ago when the Litvishe Rabonim who are Makpid on Yashan said that that year people did not have to be makpid because the wheat was infested with bugs. If you want to know the exact year, I could find out, but at that point they had to rely on the minority opinion that holds it is not mandatory and also on the double doubt opinions because it was close to impossible to get yashan due to the bugs. Anyways, his own father said that he believes that we can no longer rely on that Bach because it is no longer difficult and we will not starve, but he is not the final authority on yashan. Where I live it is easy shmeezy to keep yashan because there are a variety of Jews so that raises the demand: almost every restaurant here is yashan. Obviously if you go to Williamsburg that will not be the case because they are not catering to Sefardim, Litvacks, and others who are a yashan-makpid crowd.

Also, regarding galus, you misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying that the entire concept of yashan possibly being ok in ch'l is possibly only applicable while in galus. People living in Halachic eretz yisroel obviously keep yashan........

Yashan is really not even applicable now (which we should let OP know because it doesn't start to become applicable until August-ish).


Last edited by Scrabble123 on Tue, Apr 28 2015, 11:50 pm; edited 2 times in total
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 28 2015, 11:46 pm
I'm still not understanding your point about galus. Are you saying that chodosh is mutter in E"Y in galus? That it is mutter in chul in galus, but it would not be muttar in chul in the time of the Beis Hamikdash?

(I think by "contemporary," HY meant galus. Which I still don't see as particularly relevant.)
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 28 2015, 11:49 pm
goodmorning wrote:
I'm still not understanding your point about galus. Are you saying that chodosh is mutter in E"Y in galus? That it is mutter in chul in galus, but it would not be muttar in chul in the time of the Beis Hamikdash?

(I think by "contemporary," HY meant galus. Which I still don't see as particularly relevant.)


I'm sorry I was typing on my iPad and it freezes on this website for some reason so I have to keep going back and forth and editing. I fixed the comment through editing it so you can go back and read it. Sorry. Re contemporary: got it. Thanks.
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 28 2015, 11:52 pm
Scrabble123 wrote:
I'm sorry I was typing on my iPad and it freezes on this website for some reason so I have to keep going back and forth and editing. I fixed the comment through editing it so you can go back and read it. Sorry. Re contemporary: got it. Thanks.


Halachic E"Y is by definition not chul. Still having a hard time figuring out where galus comes in.
If you are defining galus as "living outside of E"Y," isn't that just called "chutz la'aretz"? If you are talking about a time when we don't have a Beis Hamikdash, is that relevant? How so?
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 29 2015, 10:10 am
Thanks for stepping in goodmorning, that is what I meant by contemporary, not an actual time frame of a few years. I really wasn't interested in debating this; I thought it was obvious that the issur of chodosh (at least in E"Y) was a deoraisa which is what was being questioned; why some people think it's "higher" than keeping CY. I was just explaining that rationale.

I am curious what year recently there was such a problem in keping yoshon that people were told to be meikil. I've been keeping yoshon for 10+ years now, and I remember some infestation issues (e.g. restaurants were no longer able to cater exclusively yoshon that they ahd in the past), and especially barley issues, but never were we given hadracha to stop keeping yoshon that year because we had nothing to eat. We survived just fine.
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amother
Orange


 

Post Wed, Apr 29 2015, 10:56 am
btw, this is a very big problem in Eretz Yisroel. The fact is that it's deoraisa there but there are many people who have no idea and are not keeping it.
Well if you buy the good hechsherim there then I assume you're fine. Problem is which I noticed when I lived there, there are many many american/british products being imported and sold in the stores (especially in anglo communities) and not all of these foods are yashan. And americans are so excited to see these products they don't think twice, since most haven't kept yashan in Chu''l.
Also, some Israelis buy these products as well.
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 29 2015, 11:22 am
I believe not everyone holds that grain from outside E"Y one has to be makpid on, and therefore they are not careful on imported products. The question is if it is dependent on the land of E"Y as to where the grain grows (in which case exported products from E"Y must be yoshon), or where one is eating it.
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