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Career choice help!
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Fri, May 08 2015, 4:07 pm
My dh is in a PhD program for biomedical engineering. Just to be clear there are different tracks in bioengineering there's biomechanical which is rehab equipment and stuff there's tissue which is more lab and cell stuff and genetic. While you don't accrue debt through school it's a long haul (like 5 years) and the stipend is about 25k so not much. In terms of jobs dh is looking now and if academia is out of the questions the research facility jobs seem to start between 40 and 50k which is ok but til u get there is a while and still not amazing. Honestly I kinda wish dh hadn't gone this route because so far it's been a lot of work with little return. Again like others said it comes down to priorities of making the most money or liking the job.

Anon because of personal details
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spring13




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 08 2015, 4:16 pm
I don't know who was telling you biotech isn't a good career path. My husband works in a pharmaceutical company (analytical chemistry, but his background is bio), and there's actually a shortage of people with lab skills at a master's degree level. People go for a PhD, thinking more education is better, but there are fewer jobs in industry (which is where the science money is) for full-on scientists. Research associates with some experience, however, get contacted by recruiters. Get a master's in biotech (DH's is from Hopkins) and you'll have a good future. You don't start out with 6 figures, but there's a lot of upward mobility: you'll get there. And pharma usually gives really good benefits Smile

My DH is always happy to advise guys about his career, PM me if your DH wants to talk to him directly.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 08 2015, 4:32 pm
If pharmacist would be good except for being too chemistry-ish, then do that one. I know nothing about it but it sounds easier than the others. My vague impression is it pays decently though not as much as other harder jobs that take more training. Maybe look at it.

Now to the point about math and chemistry.

These phobias have to go. Here is how: decide they will. Two, get a young pleasant friendly tutor in these subjects and ask for help like a bleating sheep. In a month, the logjam will break and the clouds will lift. There is beauty and charm in the logic of these subjects once you get comfortable.

It is like visiting a foreign country where you don't know the language. Just getting food and finding the loo is a major project. You hate it and want to go home.

But if you hire a friendly tutor in the language, in a month you are doing better and life is getting bearable.

Nobody likes dragging phobias around. Life is lighter without them.

He will ENJOY mastering things that used to scare him.

Some people get their driver's licenses after ten tries. That's ok. Whatever it takes. If it takes four or five tutors that's ok.

You start at the end and work backwards. You envision yourself in a clean well-lighted environment keeping charge of pharmaceuticals for xyz money and you decide you WILL pass that test, even if it takes ten tries. Enough tutoring, you get there.

If he can think abstractly about Torah he can think abstractly about anything.
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mille




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 08 2015, 6:17 pm
amother wrote:
He does want to be a doctor, the "at least I'll have a career" is his response to me saying "Why don't you do PhD instead, it's easier to get into, THEY pay YOU (ok a pittance maybe but a big difference from paying $100,000 for four years), and you get to do that research you like." But yeah the not 22 anymore part is my argument. And then that makes him feel bad so that's no good. Sigh. The "rigorous crazy years" is a big turnoff for me. For him maybe he can get through it, but I'll be the one home without a husband all that time...picking up the pieces... while working my neck off to keep the debt down... thanks no thanks.

Yeah well what's a "Scientist III" and how many people get to be one, even if you get the PhD and experience who says you get hired? And is the experience postdoc university work? because I hear that stinks in both pay and work. If you know a "Scientist III" please do share I would LOVE to be in touch with them and hear what it's like and how to follow! I have not yet found any Scientist IIIs. All I have found to talk to are biologists who aren't making money, biologists who switched to marketing, and biologists who work for boring universities and probably aren't making much either. One biologist who is content doing some redundant-sounding gene sequencing job that has you behind a computer all day and I forgot whether his salary is worth anything. A few happy chemists because I said "bioengineering, chemical engineering, whatever at least talk to each other!" but happy as they are they did not inspire DH to stop disliking chemistry.

But I guess salary.com is not that discouraging... I'm gonna go over there and look up "scientist I" and "scientist II" because I'll be gray and feeble by the time we hit "scientist 3" - figure 5 years for the PhD plus 6 years of experience ok maybe not THAT gray but probably sick and tired of the whole journey. Oh wait, no that's what I am NOW.


It's usually the opposite. In my experience it starts with IV and works down to I. A "Scientist I" would be someone with many years of experience and a PhD. A "Scientist IV" would be someone probably with a masters and little experience. When I hire research assistants, they are usually Research Assistant IV, meaning someone with a bachelors and 6 mo-1 year experience in a lab.

OP, my current job is research oriented and involves hiring in bio/chem/neuroscience/other science fields. If you feel comfortable, I would be happy to forward your husband's resume/CV if you PM it to me. I understand if you are not comfortable with it though. Especially if he has lab experience. If he is looking to do a PhD, he should get as much research experience as possible and make connections now.

One thing I will say though regarding the original post... Science is not fast. If your husband will be unhappy doing one complete study over 6 months that finds something small and not groundbreaking fast research studies, he is not going to be satisfied. Because science is not fast. Most science is not groundbreaking. Generally what we consider to be 'groundbreaking' research is a connection that has clinical implications that are still 10-15 years away. I've been involved in a few studies that are considered 'groundbreaking' in their respective fields. If I told you the names of the papers, you'd roll your eyes at me and say "That's it? That's all you found? A tiny correlation from something I've never heard of that has zero clinical impact right now?" That's just how science is.

If he goes into something biotech/bioengineering/biochem, he has a good chance of getting an industry job which pays a lot better than academia. Which is great. I have some postdoc fellowship positions right now that are paying around $70k which is 0-1 year post PhD in molecular bio.

I feel like I have a lot more to say because I'm involved in this field now, but I have to cook for shabbos still! I didn't really read most of the thread so after shabbos I'll try to read and see if there's other things I can clarify!
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 08 2015, 7:55 pm
OP, you list academic history, likes and dislikes, skills, and practical considerations. But you have not listed anything about job history. It sounds like you are married a while since you mention tuition assistance, so I'm thinking you are married at least 6-7 years, which would put your husband closer to 30 than 20. I get the feeling that job experience is minimal because it sounds like he is working up a job scenario in his mind, while the reality is that most jobs are a mix of mostly the mundane and sometimes something a bit exciting or even really exciting comes along.

So what are his job experiences to date? Have these experiences informed the assertions that you bring, or is this just his own impressions of himself? I believe that many people find skills they did not know they had, or interests they did not know they had, within the work environment. Or in other words, if work experience is minimal, the self-evaluation is probably not fantastic.
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amother
Amber


 

Post Fri, May 08 2015, 8:20 pm
I hire people in bio fields all the time.

You are not thinking creatively enough at all.

One idea that pops up right away:
There are a zillion positions in Clinical Trial companies that can use the experience and education he already has. He also can get a decent job in a university or hospital that values lab experience-- much of this is managerial, but pay is there.

Is his personality EXCELLENT? That is key. I have hired several project managers with BS degrees making $100,000+ in the past two months. I have also hired lab managers making $85,000+ this year.

Instead of going back to school, explore more deeply what he can already do.

He might consider getting a certificate in project management or similar if he wants to go that route.
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theotherone




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, May 09 2015, 11:26 pm
I admit I know very little about this, but I have a (non-frum) relative who just got a PHD in epidemiology. She found a good paying job as soon as she graduated.
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theotherone




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 10 2015, 11:25 am
I just remembered I am not sure that my relative did epidemiology. She was also considering molecular biology and toxicology and I always forget which one she ultimately chose. But I know she found a job in her ideal location very quickly after she got her phd.

Last edited by theotherone on Sun, May 10 2015, 12:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 10 2015, 11:35 am
I am probably more of a cynic in terms of careers. Most of the people I know aren't "passionate" about their careers. Work is what you do because someone is paying you to do - that for me is the bottom line. I have a professional degree and there are aspects of my job that I find interesting but the only reason I work is because I need the money. From the outside, a lot of people would love to have had the jobs I have had but between the pressure, the tedium and office politics - not to mention the sheer strain of putting in the hours at the job and commuting, it's not something I would do without a paycheck.

I think you need to crunch the numbers. There must be some kind of job a person with a BS in science can get that brings in a reasonable amount of money. If you run a cost benefit analysis - I.e. money it costs to get a higher degree/money lost while getting the degree versus salary one could be earning, does it pay off financially?

Especially since, at least to me, your husband appears to be completely unrealistic about what a "job" is really about because no job is going to be as perfect as the one your husband appears to be thinking he is entitled to have.
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 10 2015, 12:57 pm
I agree with amarante. I'm getting the sense that your dh got his bs a while ago and now is floundering because he can't decide on the perfect job. I have a relative like that. But the truth is that very few lucky people make the big bucks doing what they love. Most people pick something they enjoy and they can work up towards at least decent pay. Since your dh already has a family he has to be practical. Med school makes no sense at this point. And btw premed involves a whole bunch of math. Does he have any lab experience?clinical research?
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amother
Copper


 

Post Sun, May 10 2015, 2:02 pm
Thanks for all the replies. I don't have time to reply to all now, maybe later, but just want to clarify re. some recent posts that DH has not been sitting around waiting for a perfect job. He just got his BS now after changing careers from klei kodesh. He is not under any illusions about investment and return, but we do need to realistically figure out what option has an investment we can afford and a return that will be worth it to us (e.g. medical school we probably can't afford to do at all, whereas master's in biotech we can handle the time and money investment but seems it might not be worth it anyway) Of course there is no perfect job but unless you want a pretty miserable life you need to find something that provides some fulfillment and uses some of your strengths.

He has a year of research lab experience. The type where you cut up small animals and do experiments on their cells and stuff.

He probably can get a job with the BS, but it would be limiting, so we're looking ahead to the next step. Maybe he can get a BS job while working part time on the MS. We don't need a get-rich-quick scheme. I have a job, things are not ideal, but we're able and willing to invest now to have a better future.

He is not so bad at math, not sure where I said that - maybe I said numbers aren't his favorite thing therefore he isn't looking for a career in accounting or actuary. The highest math he took was calculus and it was difficult for him but he got an A. It didn't come naturally and he did get some tutoring in order to get there, but it's not like he has math phobia or avoidance.

Currently seeking more info on the fields of biomedical engineering and biostatistics, as well as general info on whether it is better to have a master's or PhD since we keep hearing conflicting reports - some say all the good jobs require PhD and there aren't many master's level jobs available, while others say PhDs are overqualified and people would rather hire with masters. Confusing.
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 10 2015, 2:17 pm
By your husband's "requirements" for a job (no bossy bosses, no research without an end game, not a people person), I think I'm a bit surprised he is coming our the klei kodesh (Rebbe?) position. He might be mistaken that some of the dislikes he developed in that field are not present in other fields. I certainly don't mean to offend, but I often get the feeling that in education there is a bit of an echo chamber where education is the.most.tough.field and outside of that things are different. All careers have their highs and lows.

If you are willing to make the investment of part time school with part time work, could he move from the kodesh to the chol side of the school teaching science, keep his job, be more versatile in terms of being able to sub kodesh when not teaching science, and have pay while pursuing the masters while looking for research positions in a master's program? Teaching experience can be valued in the workplace as experience in managerial aspects, for example.
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 06 2016, 6:41 pm
Amber amother, how can I reach you? Can you PM me or post an email address or something? I know someone looking for a job and you say you hire people...
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 06 2016, 8:34 pm
Also mille - I think I tried PM'ing you but don't remember getting an answer, I'll search my messages but if you do see this can you please contact me?
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