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Passing on food I can't eat. (S/O)
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chaos




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 25 2015, 8:53 pm
Emphasis is everything. If the person offering the chalav stam food to me emphasized that she was doing so because she didn't want it to go to waste, I would feel pretty good about the encounter and the exchange. I don't want good food to go to waste either, so I would feel like it is a good thing that she offered it to me and that now we've both prevented needless waste.

But if the emphasis fell on the "this is chalav stam and I only eat chalav yisrael but I'm offering to you because your standards are lower" part, the encounter would leave a bit of a bad taste, although I probably would take the food given my aforementioned feelings on waste.

I feel like I would even prefer if the giver came up with an invented white lie, like an allergy or insensitivity or diet or whatever. Even if it a transparent white lie, I would appreciate the gesture of not trying to put down my kashrut standards.
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lucky14




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 25 2015, 9:42 pm
I wouldn't care if someone gave something to me that they wouldn't eat. I'd be happy to get something free Smile And if they believed it REALLY wasn't right for a Jew to eat then they wouldn't be giving it out (or at least shouldn't). They just hold on a slightly stricter hechsher and who cares?
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m in Israel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 25 2015, 11:07 pm
lucky14 wrote:
I wouldn't care if someone gave something to me that they wouldn't eat. I'd be happy to get something free Smile And if they believed it REALLY wasn't right for a Jew to eat then they wouldn't be giving it out (or at least shouldn't). They just hold on a slightly stricter hechsher and who cares?


I think this is a good point as well. If you hold something is truly assur you are not ALLOWED to give it to another Jew due to the halachos of "lifnei iver" (and possibly "mesaya l'dvar aveira). The very fact that someone is giving it to you means they are acknowledging that it is b'etzem muttar, even though for whatever reasons they don't eat it.

However, since the reaction is generally an emotional one rather than a logical one, I'm not sure how much this perspective would help someone who gets offended about this.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 25 2015, 11:44 pm
Squishy wrote:
Only some people here think it is offensive. Others think the ban is reactionary. Others think the fact that it is now banned is because some people are very vocal about PC. You claimed to be one of them.

Since Yael mentioned hasidim make the largest faction of amother users, I would say that most do not find the word offensive.

A quote I've found attributed to several people goes "antisemitism means hating the Jews more than necessary". I wonder if that "non-offensive" terms like this are how one expresses no more than the standard disdain for non-Jews,. And maybe the same goes for the Yiddish word for black people.

Come to think of it, what do hassidim call non-hassidic Jews nowadays? Are we all still misnagdim? Any special names for MO or non-orthodox?
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 25 2015, 11:52 pm
I never heard of גוי being offensive till I came here. I still don't get it. Is non-Jew worse, it sends the message of you're not us (we're better)
The Amish call the non-Amish Gentiles, the Muslims call non-Muslims infidels, I think that's pretty bad.
There are Jews and 70 Goylm. I don't know which nation, it often doesn't matter. Should we bury our heads in the sand, there are people who are different than us in this world?
What do you call them?
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 26 2015, 1:50 am
Iymnok wrote:
I never heard of גוי being offensive till I came here. I still don't get it. Is non-Jew worse, it sends the message of you're not us (we're better)
The Amish call the non-Amish Gentiles, the Muslims call non-Muslims infidels, I think that's pretty bad.
There are Jews and 70 Goylm. I don't know which nation, it often doesn't matter. Should we bury our heads in the sand, there are people who are different than us in this world?
What do you call them?


The original term was not used in a pejorative way in tanach (ואעשך לגוי גדול etc.) but it has acquired negative overtones. It comes with a heavy load of cultural and emotional baggage. Non-Jews is a much more neutral term.
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 26 2015, 1:57 am
I'll take your word for it. If I'm talking to someone not Jewish or not religious I'd use non-Jew anyways since I like to be understood.
I think people can feel if you're being respectful or derogatory. I don't like to flat out ban words that are not outright vulgarity. A person can speak using beautiful language that's incredibly derogatory and mean.
(This should have its own thread though, no?)
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 26 2015, 2:47 am
Nothing wrong with the word g.o.y, imo, as the non-jews I know, mostly family, are so pleased with themselves when they say that word because it's the hebrew word for non-jew. It's totally not the same as shik.sa for example, which is derogatory. My very non-racist children who speak hebrew and english, use that word, too. What is the alternative, for hebrew speakers? Seriously, what is the PC term in Hebrew, in Israel, for non-jew??

That said, when speaking proper english, I now use the term non-Jew or gentile, because of imamother.
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 26 2015, 2:55 am
Sorry, OP, back OT. There is nothing wrong with being picky with your hechshers. It's just, as a hostess, I would like to know ahead of time so that I can accommodate you.

That said, as long as there is something you can eat, I am fine with it. I really don't work too hard to go out of my way to meet everyone's idiosyncrasies. You can't please everyone these days. Hechshers and diets and just plain picky eaters. I pass them the bread (or gluten free crackers) and chocolate spread (because not everyone eats butter). Wink
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 26 2015, 3:06 am
chani8 wrote:
Nothing wrong with the word g.o.y, imo, as the non-jews I know, mostly family, are so pleased with themselves when they say that word because it's the hebrew word for non-jew. It's totally not the same as shik.sa for example, which is derogatory. My very non-racist children who speak hebrew and english, use that word, too. What is the alternative, for hebrew speakers? Seriously, what is the PC term in Hebrew, in Israel, for non-jew??

That said, when speaking proper english, I now use the term non-Jew or gentile, because of imamother.

I say אינו/ה יהודי
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 26 2015, 3:13 am
Iymnok wrote:
I never heard of גוי being offensive till I came here. I still don't get it. Is non-Jew worse, it sends the message of you're not us (we're better)
The Amish call the non-Amish Gentiles, the Muslims call non-Muslims infidels, I think that's pretty bad.
There are Jews and 70 Goylm. I don't know which nation, it often doesn't matter. Should we bury our heads in the sand, there are people who are different than us in this world?
What do you call them?

You don't meet many Amish in Jerusalem and I don't know a lot of Mormons who also call outsiders gentiles, so I don't know how they use the word. I will ask a friend who is involved in interfaith work in Israel if the word infidel/kaffir gets used there.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 26 2015, 3:16 am
Iymnok wrote:
I'll take your word for it. If I'm talking to someone not Jewish or not religious I'd use non-Jew anyways since I like to be understood.
I think people can feel if you're being respectful or derogatory. I don't like to flat out ban words that are not outright vulgarity. A person can speak using beautiful language that's incredibly derogatory and mean.
(This should have its own thread though, no?)

I don't like to ban any words, including the ones you can't say on TV.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 26 2015, 4:26 am
chani8 wrote:
Nothing wrong with the word g.o.y, imo, as the non-jews I know, mostly family, are so pleased with themselves when they say that word because it's the hebrew word for non-jew. It's totally not the same as shik.sa for example, which is derogatory. My very non-racist children who speak hebrew and english, use that word, too. What is the alternative, for hebrew speakers? Seriously, what is the PC term in Hebrew, in Israel, for non-jew??

That said, when speaking proper english, I now use the term non-Jew or gentile, because of imamother.


In Hebrew the term has fewer derogatory cultural connotations since most modern Hebrew speakers do not live among gentiles. Arabs are called just that, not g-yim. When the term g-y is uttered in Hebrew nowadays it is most often in the halachic context, as an objective classification - more seldomly as an appellation (derogatory or otherwise) for some real-life, specific person or group. And yes, לא יהודים is a commonly used term in modern Hebrew.
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amother
Orange


 

Post Tue, May 26 2015, 5:52 am
Iymnok wrote:
I never heard of גוי being offensive till I came here. I still don't get it. Is non-Jew worse, it sends the message of you're not us (we're better)
The Amish call the non-Amish Gentiles, the Muslims call non-Muslims infidels, I think that's pretty bad.
There are Jews and 70 Goylm. I don't know which nation, it often doesn't matter. Should we bury our heads in the sand, there are people who are different than us in this world?
What do you call them?


The Amish do not call non Amish gentiles..... They call them english
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