Hate myself but can't stop yelling :(

modehani

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 2:24 pm

Is this child your oldest?

What you are describing sounds to me very similar to what I went through with my oldest. I'm not trying to minimize it - it was beyond frustrating. My reactions to her behavior went like this - I would try to muster all the patience I could, she would make one unreasonable demand after another, and eventually I would snap and scream at her. I felt awful, she felt awful. I felt like this was an especially difficult child, possibly special needs.

It turns out what she needed was consistency and having me follow through. I had heard that a parent should be "kind but firm", but I didn't know how to implement that. I was constantly second guessing myself.

I had to establish 1. my unconditional love, 2. that the boundaries I was setting were for her own good, 3. the fortitude to NOT GIVE IN NO MATTER WHAT. The thing is, I could read about this approach and hear about it 1000 times, but nothing gave me the vision and strength to actually internalize it and carry it out until I took Dina's course. (I do not know what you are referring to as "alienating techniques". Was that a typo?)

This particular course may not be for everyone, and it could be that your child has special needs. But I do think that an in-depth parenting course would give you tools you can use, the understanding that TONS of other people are going through similar challenges with their kids (you are so not alone in this!), and could get you to a place where your relationship with this child is close, easy, and flowing.

I wish you lots of hatzlacha!

FranticFrummie

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 2:30 pm

Chani8 described it perfectly. Thumbs Up

My DD was a delightful 2yo, but when she hit 4, all bets were off. At wits end

I told her pretty much exactly what Chani said. "I don't like being the mean mommy, it makes me sad. I want to be the fun mommy who smiles and plays games with you. I miss being the fun mommy." etc.

DD is 11 (almost 12) and we're going through a similar stage right now. I use the same technique with her, but in more grow up language. She still has a fit if I put down a firm boundary, but in the long run she does listen to me, and she understands my reasoning even if she doesn't agree with it or like it.

BTW, my DD is special needs, with Fragile X Syndrome, sensory issues, and auditory processing disorder.

amother

Cyan

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 2:54 pm

Hi OP. So it sounds like you are going through something that sounds very much like my daughter. We went from therapist to therapist to therapist paying a lot of money. I also read the book recommended to you and many others. It was all to no avail. We even went to a privately paid psychiatrist, who also said just defiance. Finally a year ago we took her to another psychiatrist who diagnosed her with a mood disorder and put her on a mood stabilizing medication. She is 10 years old. The problems started when she was much younger age 2-3. If I can tell you, she is a DIFFERENT child. I know the h-ll you are living with. It is awful. If my daughter ever has moments of the old days (happens occasionally) I shudder to think I lived with it day in and day out! I am happy to tell you more if you want to PM me.
Do not be hard on yourself. It is a super hard challenge and sent from G-d. Hopefully you will grow from it and so will your daughter. Once there is a diagnosis you also realize that she doesn't mean to be bad, but actually has a problem. I found that alittle helpful too. In any event I also bordered on abusive, both verbally and physically. People don't realize what it is to leave with such a child. I get it. I've been there.

Hatzlacha!

amother

Forestgreen

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 7:29 pm

Yes, alienating was one of those weird random autocorrects. I meant to write parenting Rolling Eyes

It's not the feeling/being mean that bothers me. I can handle that. I mean, if I can yell like a banshee then I can certainly withold privileges and whatever. My problem is enforcing limits. She fights limits/consequences/enforcement so hard that the whole thing blows up into a big power struggle/fight and completely misses the point while turning my entire parenting experience into exactly the kind of mess I wish to avoid. For example, she was rude (severely) at the Shabbos table, so I told her she would have no dessert. She kvetched, then cried, then tried to hit me/DH. So I sent her to her bed. Of course she refused to go and there was more fighting and screaming and crying and hitting/kicking about that. I physically picked her up and placed her in her bed and shut the door. She eventually calmed down and came back. She made a few attempts to earn/beg/whine her dessert back, but as I said I have no problem being firm. She lost it due to her behavior and it wasn't going to be undone. When it was dessert time for the rest of the family, she followed me into the kitchen and attempted to grab cake out of the serving pan and scoop her hands into the sorbet. I blocked her. She started to fight. I put her back in her room. Two minutes later she came back out and tried to grab out of everyone's dishes as they were eating. Back to her room. More tantrum. Basically instead of being a simple consequence for her rude behavior during kiddush, it turned into a massive fight over dessert and banishing from the table. I don't even know if she remembered her rudeness by the time we were through with all this. And I HATE the part where we ended up fighting over dessert. I don't want my kid having food control issues and I do everything I can to avoid that in general but losing dessert was such an appropriate consequence for that misbehavior.

Anyway the point is that this happens EVERY SINGLE TIME anything happens. It becomes a fight about the consequence and whatever the original point was is totally lost. I don't give in when I set limits but even though I have been the same firm for the last 2-3 years she still hasn't figured out that "no means no." Instead she thinks that "no means fight." I can't figure out how to keep my no without the fight because no matter what I do to try to avoid it, she out-fights me. The only even theoretically possible option is physical restraint but that's not really an option either, besides being totally against what I believe about parenting.

sourstix

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 7:36 pm

I didnt read your whole post I read a part of it. and I can almost write every word for my situation. ds is very demanding. and very vociferous. so I can give you my two sense on this and what I have learned. firstly by you yelling it means your out of control. your child will take advantage and not listen. you need to control that. its very hard at first but gets easier and its the best thing. I have the same urge like you. the rule with such kids is either you are in control or she is. when you yell she doesnt hear you. its like blah blah in her brain. (when someone yells at me I feel the same I just tune out) then say it clearly what you can give her what her choice is. and say that you will say it once and not again. then if she argues about it just say I said what I had to say and I wont talk about it again. she will not get you the first time. shes been nagging for however long she will learn a new way of behavior. if she starts yelling and tantruming you say I will listen when you stop that. but tell her before she has the meltdown that when she has a tantrum you will listen after she talks nicely. I hope this was helpful. hatzlacha

sourstix

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 7:47 pm

[quote="amother"]Yes, alienating was one of those weird random autocorrects. I meant to write parenting :roll:

It's not the feeling/being mean that bothers me. I can handle that. I mean, if I can yell like a banshee then I can certainly withold privileges and whatever. My problem is enforcing limits. She fights limits/consequences/enforcement so hard that the whole thing blows up into a big power struggle/fight and completely misses the point while turning my entire parenting experience into exactly the kind of mess I wish to avoid. For example, she was rude (severely) at the Shabbos table, so I told her she would have no dessert. She kvetched, then cried, then tried to hit me/DH. So I sent her to her bed. Of course she refused to go and there was more fighting and screaming and crying and hitting/kicking about that. I physically picked her up and placed her in her bed and shut the door. She eventually calmed down and came back. She made a few attempts to earn/beg/whine her dessert back, but as I said I have no problem being firm. She lost it due to her behavior and it wasn't going to be undone. When it was dessert time for the rest of the family, she followed me into the kitchen and attempted to grab cake out of the serving pan and scoop her hands into the sorbet. I blocked her. She started to fight. I put her back in her room. Two minutes later she came back out and tried to grab out of everyone's dishes as they were eating. Back to her room. More tantrum. Basically instead of being a simple consequence for her rude behavior during kiddush, it turned into a massive fight over dessert and banishing from the table. I don't even know if she remembered her rudeness by the time we were through with all this. And I HATE the part where we ended up fighting over dessert. I don't want my kid having food control issues and I do everything I can to avoid that in general but losing dessert was such an appropriate consequence for that misbehavior.

Anyway the point is that this happens EVERY SINGLE TIME anything happens. It becomes a fight about the consequence and whatever the original point was is totally lost. I don't give in when I set limits but even though I have been the same firm for the last 2-3 years she still hasn't figured out that "no means no." Instead she thinks that "no means fight." I can't figure out how to keep my no without the fight because no matter what I do to try to avoid it, she out-fights me. The only even theoretically possible option is physical restraint but that's not really an option either, besides being totally against what I believe about parenting.[/quote]

it looks like there is no authority here. is there anything she listens too? what did your dh do when she started hitting him? why doesnt he show authority? you blocking her from taking cake, shows me that she has no respect and you should not have blocked her. your not accomplishing anything this way. blocking is going down on her level. you should never block her that way. if she is rude she should have been sent out for whatever time it was and the whole thing over. pp are rude and they say im sorry. she should have been made to say sorry and maybe sent out for 5 minutes. thats it. your dragging it out and thats why it ended this way. and noone won here. she didnt learn anything. its power struggle. and that shows no respect. sorry I am being a little sharp. I know this hurts. I wish I understood this too much before I had the issues I have with one of my kids today. but I have learned. I am not perfect and never will be. I keep learning.

imasinger

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 8:43 pm

Sourstix, my challenging DD says exactly what you say -- that lectures just get turned into blah blah blah in her head. Are you me? Or her? Smile

OP, it is important to keep in mind that the point of discipline is education. For many kids, losing dessert as a consequence for rudeness at the meal would make sense. It would remind them not to be rude again.

But if your DD has difficulty knowing when she says something that others find rude, she may see such punishments as harsh and unfair. If she has trouble putting herself in someone else's shoes, she's not going to get why she can't have the pillow that Baby is using. These are social thinking issues, and she might benefit from social skills groups.

So, how can you teach and control a child like this? Luckily for you, there are a number of things.

1. Be sure to spend 5-10 minutes a day where you act like a sports commentator, no praise or blame, just interest and verbal feedback. "You want to color. Can I watch? Oh, I see you chose purple for the fish. Cool! That seaweed is green. I remember seeing green seaweed in the water one time. The second fish is yellow. You're usinga lot of colors! Which fish do you like best?" (Notice -- you don't comment about coloring in the lines, or crayon grasp, or whatever, not even to praise. This is all about sharing the child's world.)

2. After a week or so of doing this, you can start rewarding even the smallest good behavior with praise, stickers, tokens, or small rewards. "Your father and I are very proud of how polite you were at the table tonight! That's my wonderful girl." If you handle it right, gradually, you should see her begin to want to do it more often.

3. Recognize and avoid triggers. Kids with issues often have poor executive functioning, so it helps to set them up for success. With my DS with ASD, I remind him before we sit down to a Shabbos meal -- he is expected to sit or stand with everyone else for kiddush, without interrupting. For doing that, for every 5 minutes he stays in his chair and uses utensils, he can earn tokens towards a few minutes extra before bed. I also do my best to make sure he is not too hungry or tired, and to cut him just the right amount of slack when he is.

For rudeness at Shabbos dinner, maybe letting her choose between apologizing and saying something nice to family to make up for the not-nice, or going to bed. If she has a say in that decision, she may be less likely to come out and grab the cake. Or even miss dessert.

This kid is probably never going to respond well to "because I said so." But you can get her to respond better to it. Let her know how proud and happy you are any time you see her taking no for an answer. Try taking that course. See what the diagnostician has to say.

And most of all, remember that it is your job, now and forever, to be on her side. Discipline in ways that help her build her character. That's not called giving in, that's called being a great parent.

modehani

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 8:56 pm

It sounds like you're having a lot of power struggles. This is a kid who needs some more control over her life, and she's trying to take it in inappropriate ways. You might see some improvement if you give her more autonomy over certain areas, so that she can exert her power in appropriate ways. For example, lots of neutral choices (which skirt to wear, which cereal to eat, which task to do first, etc.). You could also try letting her do something "big", like help prepare the salad, or clear the table.

Of course, this is done at a time when feelings aren't high. Just as, "I see you're getting so big now. I think you might be ready to ____."

This could help some of the drama go down.

njmom35

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 5:06 pm

I was once in your shoes and it's a horrible place to be when you are feeling like you hate yourself and nothing you do is working. I went through years of self hate and even feeling like I hated my own children for it. I have moved past that stage but I didn't do it alone. I got lots and lots of support in doing it. I am a single mother and my family lives out of town, because I don't have support from family, I had to find other ways of getting the support I desperately needed. I firmly believe that it takes a village to raise a child. Two of my kids have a laundry list of special needs including mood disorder, oppositional defiant disorder, adhd, and more including learning issues. My life was a living hell and I wanted to give up. I felt alone and cursed. What saved my life was calling Perform Care. If you live in NJ then this is covered by medicaid, I don't know what other states offer. I called them and asked for a needs assessment and got approved for services. The services we received included case management, in home therapist, behavioral assistant and parent mentor- all in home. Each provided an invaluable service that lasted for over a year. I sacrificed a lot of my privacy during that time period and would not miss their therapies unless absolutely necessary. My parent mentor came during the time that the kids are home, and helped me and coached me. The in home therapist gave me the direction I needed to get my children properly diagnosed and on medication by a renowned child psychiatrist. Once I knew what their issues were, I was able to understand them and not react with anger. I had to change my mind set completely and understand that they don't always know how to express their frustrations. Once I changed, I was able to begin helping them. The therapist believes that first you help the parent and then the child. The mother has to be strong and mentally able to cope with the challenges she is faced with.

One of the hardest parts of making change is the resistance I got from my kids and it got worse before it got better. My children are all different children now and know that when I say something, I mean it. I don't have to yell but when I do, they respond. In the past they used to tune me out completely and I was out of control. Everyday is a work in progress but its nowhere close to what it was. I have been able to restore the relationship with my children. We set goals based on what is going on at the time. Not a list of rules or charts, but one goal at a time. It isn't overwhelming to them or to you this way. Once they master that goal, move on to the next.

I hope for your sake you are able to get the support you need. You are not alone and the resources are there. Its just a matter of finding them.

After my children graduated from the case management program, I was hired on as a parent mentor because of the progress we made. I would be happy to talk to anyone or offer assistance in locating resources near you.

sourstix

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 5:26 pm

imasinger you make me laugh. seriouslyfrom all the years of parenting I have heard so many times that children(and adults) hate lectures. if you need to correct behavior like chani says. say it as short as possible. like if shes rude. you say say it nicely. first say sorry. like I said. first the parent needs to be in control of their own emotions. if they are grouchy and moody. and just say things in a grouchy way kids will react to that and misbehave. common just listen to me. or why dont you listen. thats not gonna work. you need to direct them and be specific. same is with yelling if you yell your child will misbehave it becomes a vicious cycle. if you stop the cycle they will have noone to continue the cycle of drama. and give a hug after they listen. show them you appreciate that they listened. my ds also tests me. it doesnt mean he isnt normal. all children test their parents thats their job. they want to see where the loophole is and what can they get away with. adults do the same. we are smarter in the way we do it. so welcome to the world of children challenging us its healthy. whats important is to stop hating yourself. thats destructive. dont speak negatively in your brain. the child will feel despondence from you. you need to be postitive. as hard as it may seem. I know exactly how you feel I have been there. bh now things are somewhat easier. but I do get into crisis sometimes. remember its something to learn from. being a parent is one of the most humble experiences. it teaches alot. be patient be patient be patient again and again. dont give up. whatever happens dont give up. no negative self talk.