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What happened to saying excuse me?! Rant
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studying_torah




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 03 2015, 9:51 am
why is it that more than once, when I've been in various groceries ( diff locations, diff types of frum guys) have rudely pushed me or my husband and refused to say excuse me?
Last night, we were in front of the chicken fridges when a man literally elbowed Dh out of the way and grabbed chickens. When dh said excuse me I was taking my chicken he said so what? You were in the way. Dh said so say excuse me. He grabbed more chicken and moved on.
There was also another guy who wanted to be so careful he doesn't touch a lady that he nearly knocked me over ( in his awkward maneuvering attempts).
That is just one example of many.
Ugh! Just say excuse me please.
End rant!
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alittlebirdie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 03 2015, 9:56 am
They just didn't listen to uncle moishy when they where little about good manners being a mitzva as well
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studying_torah




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 03 2015, 9:59 am
Thanks little birdie! Ur reply made me smile!
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 03 2015, 5:01 pm
Sigh. Secular culture affects the frum world in more ways than one. Society at large is suffering from a severe dearth of civility, and so does frum society. I believe the roots of the problem are multiple: 1. greater and greater emphasis on the gratification of the self and less and less emphasis on concern for "the other" 2. lack of attention to basic courtesy in education, both in the home and in the schools 3. A pervasive attitude that manners and etiquette are out of date and phony.

Manners are indeed phony; that is the entire point. They are an attempt to curb the normal human impulse to put oneself first. It is perfectly natural to want to grab your chickens and get out of the grocery; you have to be taught to wait your turn. Not everyone learns this lesson equally well, and even those who learned reasonably well have days when their store of patience and accommodation runs low.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 03 2015, 5:26 pm
zaq wrote:
Sigh. Secular culture affects the frum world in more ways than one. Society at large is suffering from a severe dearth of civility, and so does frum society. I believe the roots of the problem are multiple: 1. greater and greater emphasis on the gratification of the self and less and less emphasis on concern for "the other" 2. lack of attention to basic courtesy in education, both in the home and in the schools 3. A pervasive attitude that manners and etiquette are out of date and phony.

Manners are indeed phony; that is the entire point. They are an attempt to curb the normal human impulse to put oneself first. It is perfectly natural to want to grab your chickens and get out of the grocery; you have to be taught to wait your turn. Not everyone learns this lesson equally well, and even those who learned reasonably well have days when their store of patience and accommodation runs low.


I have to strongly disagree. The rudeness is worse in the frum world. Did you every see people grabbing for flowers erev shabbos in Williamsburg at the corner florist sellers on the street? DH told me not to stand there and that I had to grab the flowers also if I want to get any I refuse to act like an animal. I have been pushed and shoved while on line for food. I have had shopping wagons rammed into me instead of frum men saying excuse me.
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smss




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 03 2015, 5:32 pm
Squishy wrote:
I have to strongly disagree. The rudeness is worse in the frum world. Did you every see people grabbing for flowers erev shabbos in Williamsburg at the corner florist sellers on the street? DH told me not to stand there and that I had to grab the flowers also if I want to get any I refuse to act like an animal. I have been pushed and shoved while on line for food. I have had shopping wagons rammed into me instead of frum men saying excuse me.


That sort of thing happens on Black Friday, for sure...
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CPenzias




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 03 2015, 5:34 pm
I try to avoid the frum stores unless I have no choice. I'm so beyond disgusted with this behavior. Enough is enough. People are simply not taught how to behave. It's gross
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Butterfly07




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 03 2015, 6:09 pm
I totally get you and I can't stand it! It is a pity that educators leave out manors.. The world is so much prettier with kindness Smile
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fmt4




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 03 2015, 6:36 pm
Butterfly07 wrote:
I totally get you and I can't stand it! It is a pity that educators leave out manors.. The world is so much prettier with kindness Smile


Yes we could all use a manor... And also some manners. LOL



*manor means a large house
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amother
Navy


 

Post Fri, Jul 03 2015, 6:39 pm
Butterfly07 wrote:
It is a pity that educators leave out manors.. )


manners. Very few of us (except the OP whose dh is a partner in a law firm and makes $750K) can afford a "manor".

But whatever happened to PARENTAL responsibility? Educators have their hands full teaching the curriculum. Proper behavior has to come from the home, and it has to be taught by example as well as in theory. I didn't teach my kids brochos and all that because I figured they would learn this soon enough in school, over and over and over again. I did, however, teach them manners, figuring that they might not necessarily learn this in school. Despite their late start, they know their brochos just as well as the kids who were taught this in utero. Their manners, needless to say, are superb.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 03 2015, 11:28 pm
IMHO, this is a cultural thing. I never in my life had to deal with this in the secular world, not even at rock concerts (OK, except at the Ramones, but that was a mosh pit, and totally expected. Cool )

I think it's a shtetl mentality, where people's grandparents were so used to fighting for survival in the bread lines, that they passed that mentality and behavior down to their children and grandchildren. If they are insular it's even worse, because there's no one from the outside to tell them that they need to chill out, and no pressure to change their ways.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 03 2015, 11:35 pm
One more thought: I don't think this is a debate about large vs. small families.

I've known families of 10 kids or more who have beautiful manners, and families of 5 or less where the kids act like it's their last meal. Seriously, you're afraid to reach for something because you're afraid they'll take your arm off, and you have to wonder if they've eaten anything all week long!
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heidi




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jul 04 2015, 2:44 pm
zaq wrote:
Sigh. Secular culture affects the frum world in more ways than one. Society at large is suffering from a severe dearth of civility, and so does frum society. I believe the roots of the problem are multiple: 1. greater and greater emphasis on the gratification of the self and less and less emphasis on concern for "the other" 2. lack of attention to basic courtesy in education, both in the home and in the schools 3. A pervasive attitude that manners and etiquette are out of date and phony.

Manners are indeed phony; that is the entire point. They are an attempt to curb the normal human impulse to put oneself first. It is perfectly natural to want to grab your chickens and get out of the grocery; you have to be taught to wait your turn. Not everyone learns this lesson equally well, and even those who learned reasonably well have days when their store of patience and accommodation runs low.


You have obviously not spent much time in the charedi/ dati leumi orthodox communities in Israel.
I have seen with my own eyes a mother tell her child who was waiting in line for the bounce house (along with about 20 other kids)-- if you don't push to the front you won't get a turn!
She looked pretty frum to me.
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amother
Olive


 

Post Sat, Jul 04 2015, 7:19 pm
heidi wrote:
You have obviously not spent much time in the charedi/ dati leumi orthodox communities in Israel.
I have seen with my own eyes a mother tell her child who was waiting in line for the bounce house (along with about 20 other kids)-- if you don't push to the front you won't get a turn!
She looked pretty frum to me.


That's absolutely not a chareidi or dat"l thing. It's an ISRAELI thing. As soon as you get on El Al the screaming pushing and shoving begins and doesn't end until you get off El Al in NY or London or wherever you've gone back to.

The non frum are JUST as bad as the frum.
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octopus




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jul 04 2015, 10:25 pm
or what about the man that honks at your car because he wants you to move up so that he can finish making his illegal u-turn. and then doesn't even have the courtesy to say thank you!

I happen to think that a lot of this is a residual Holocaust survival mechanism. The ones that pushed got food and survived.
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Notsobusy




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jul 04 2015, 10:41 pm
heidi wrote:
You have obviously not spent much time in the charedi/ dati leumi orthodox communities in Israel.
I have seen with my own eyes a mother tell her child who was waiting in line for the bounce house (along with about 20 other kids)-- if you don't push to the front you won't get a turn!
She looked pretty frum to me.


Did the other 19 mothers also tell their kids to push? If not, all your story proves is that there was one rude lady at the bounce house.
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studying_torah




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jul 04 2015, 11:03 pm
No I don't live in e'y; and sadly I'm not the op whose Dh makes $750 k a year ( helvai)!
And it happened w chassidish, yeshivishe and just plain frum guys so sadly I think it's an issue across the board. I was so disgusted this time, that it really bothered me for a long time afterwards and led to my rant.
These were all adults too; and trust me I've had my fair share of dealing w obnoxious kids too. But how can the kids learn to behave diff if this is what the adults do?!
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amother
Aqua


 

Post Sat, Jul 04 2015, 11:37 pm
I don't know. I'm a BT so I can clearly say this is not a secular thing seeping in. This was my experience when I was living in NY and hated it. I was once waiting in line at a pizza store and was shoved aside so a frum guy could pick up his order that was ready. And grocery shopping? Forget it. As far as saying excuse me, though, people in grocery stores usually just ignored me when I said it, even loudly. Maybe it's just not part of people's vocabulary.
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boymom




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jul 04 2015, 11:55 pm
sorry OP if you had such experiences. its interesting, cuz im living in very heimish community all my life and cant recall every being pushed or shoved while shopping or buying flowers or anything else in the community. very chassidish men politely ask or motion to me if they can go ahead of me in line when they have one item and I have a wagonfull. and I always let them.
and then when theres a siyum hashas and 90,000 jewish people are gathered in one stadium, the security guards were in awe at how well behaved such a crowd was. no brawls, no fights....

I think most parents encourage good manners and im sure there are those that couldn't care less- this applies to jews and non jews. to every culture. also, I think pple are just self absorbed and don't look around them and see theres a world that they have to take into consideration. nothing to do with culture or religion.
also, if youre looking for negative in a community, you can definitely find it, but don't brand whole communities because of some isolated incidents.
and btw, there is such a concept called "survival of the fittest" and its said a lot about NYC! all of NYC, not just the jews.
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heidi




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 05 2015, 12:20 am
amother wrote:
That's absolutely not a chareidi or dat"l thing. It's an ISRAELI thing. As soon as you get on El Al the screaming pushing and shoving begins and doesn't end until you get off El Al in NY or London or wherever you've gone back to.

The non frum are JUST as bad as the frum.


Umm, that was my point.
It's not like we got it from the secular society. It's an awful mentality. But don't blame everything on the non jews.
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