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What happened to saying excuse me?! Rant
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heidi




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 05 2015, 12:21 am
glutenless wrote:
Did the other 19 mothers also tell their kids to push? If not, all your story proves is that there was one rude lady at the bounce house.


The other 19 mothers were Americans or children of Americans.
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 05 2015, 4:46 am
I've not seen this kind of behavior since I've been living in a mixed small town in Israel. Everyone is nice and well mannered. I think it's a big city mentality.
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sneakermom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 05 2015, 6:46 am
Maybe I'm desensitized. Or biased. Who knows? But wherever I go I mostly see very nice, kind people.

Sometimes there's pushing and shoving. (Three rides to service thousands of kids, on an ill planned chol hamoade).

But mostly it's a lot of mentchlichkeit. People wait on lines. They help each other. They show compassion.

There's always an obnoxious person here or there. But such is life. Why waste my time dwelling on them ?
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Debbie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 05 2015, 11:38 am
amother wrote:
I don't know. I'm a BT so I can clearly say this is not a secular thing seeping in. This was my experience when I was living in NY and hated it. I was once waiting in line at a pizza store and was shoved aside so a frum guy could pick up his order that was ready. And grocery shopping? Forget it. As far as saying excuse me, though, people in grocery stores usually just ignored me when I said it, even loudly. Maybe it's just not part of people's vocabulary.



I'm also BT and I agree with this; I do sometimes wonder why it is that saying excuse me is sadly not as common place as it should be with Frum people.
I have stood aside on a number of occasions to let a Frum person pass and not had an excuse me nor a thank you; now I usually say 'you're welcome' and sometimes I get a 'sorry',other times I get a strange look!
It is very easy to say it has crept in from the non Jewish world but I really think that there are times when we have to admit that isn't always true.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 05 2015, 1:02 pm
sneakermom wrote:
Maybe I'm desensitized. Or biased. Who knows? But wherever I go I mostly see very nice, kind people.

Sometimes there's pushing and shoving. (Three rides to service thousands of kids, on an ill planned chol hamoade).

But mostly it's a lot of mentchlichkeit. People wait on lines. They help each other. They show compassion.

There's always an obnoxious person here or there. But such is life. Why waste my time dwelling on them ?


There is pushing and shocking at funerals and at chussnahs when children of bigshots marry and at normal events to get to food. This is beyond an obnoxious person here and there. The erev Shabbos pushing and shoving for flowers is exclusively frum people. Come to Monsey erev Shabbos and you will see inexcusable behavior. It is not a surprise that Shabbos is Friday night so why does poor planning give license to abuse others? You don't get to cut off cars in the pushing lot. You don't get to be rude to others.

Also, I hate when frum people don't pick up after themselves. This is on the shortcuts, kindly provided by owners. They are filthy and are almost exclusively used by frum people. I have seen countless times when moms toss their kids garbage instead of putting it in their stroller until they come to a trash container.

I am always picking up trash on my street. Everyone who walks on my block except for workers is frum.

Until you admit there is a problem, you can't solve it. Skvare recognizes there is a problem and one kollel (at least) hired a rebbe too teach mannerS and interacting with larger society. Please, thank you and excuse me are addressed.
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mandr




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 05 2015, 1:46 pm
Please remember that there are two sides to every situation. Ok, the line with heimish, frum people on it may be a bit more "unmentchlach" than the line of secular people. HOWEVER, say you needed an emergency tissue, or a to use a cellphone or something like that, I can pretty much guarantee that every one of the people on the first line will gladly give you whatever you needed (assuming they have it), whereas on the second line I can't say that.

I was in one of the Orlando parks this winter, with my husband and baby. A non-Jewish woman approached several mothers with babies in tow to ask for a spare pamper. They all claimed they didn't have (which really doesn't make sense if they actually had babies with them). Soon she reached me and I had no problem giving her one of my son's.

Sorry, I know you are upset about the lack of manners (and manors) but keep in mind that there are annoying aspects to every kind of sect.
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 05 2015, 2:40 pm
Op
They do whatever they think they can get away with
Dh, went to ps and had all Italian friends. Someone did that to him once so he yanked the guys payos and belted him
The poor guy was in a such a state of shock and kept saying I'm sorry
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Carmen Luna




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 05 2015, 2:55 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
Op
They do whatever they think they can get away with
Dh, went to ps and had all Italian friends. Someone did that to him once so he yanked the guys payos and belted him
The poor guy was in a such a state of shock and kept saying I'm sorry


YOUR DH YANKED HIS PAYOS FOR CUTTING THE LINE (OR SOMETHING SOMETHING TO THAT EXTENT)?? AND THEN BELTED HIM? WOW! YOUR DH SOUNDS LIKE A BOWL FULL OF CHERRIES. Besides, this just proves the point that the frum people are more mannered. your dh went to PS so he acted like his Italian friends. Im sorry, but I find your little anecdote disturbing
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June




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 05 2015, 3:06 pm
what a great thread for Bein Hametzarim.

a live demonstration on why the Third Temple hasn't yet been built.
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momX4




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 05 2015, 3:34 pm
heidi wrote:
You have obviously not spent much time in the charedi/ dati leumi orthodox communities in Israel.
I have seen with my own eyes a mother tell her child who was waiting in line for the bounce house (along with about 20 other kids)-- if you don't push to the front you won't get a turn!
She looked pretty frum to me.


You have to teach your kids to push to keep their place in line, unfortunately. I once put my ds on the deli line for a small order. When he was next I walked away to continue my shopping. I came back only to find 3 people INFRONT of my DS. This is so unacceptable! Same thing happened at a different shopping trip where a DC went to pay. Everyone pushed infront.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 05 2015, 4:44 pm
octopus wrote:
or what about the man that honks at your car because he wants you to move up so that he can finish making his illegal u-turn. and then doesn't even have the courtesy to say thank you!

I happen to think that a lot of this is a residual Holocaust survival mechanism. The ones that pushed got food and survived.


Ahem. 8 million New Yorkers cannot possibly all be Holocaust survivors. So let's lop off the 4 million New Yorkers who don't honk their horns twenty seconds before the light turns green. The other 4 million still cannot all be Holocaust survivors. So what's their excuse?

And you know what? Not all Holocaust survivors are that way, either. I used to think so, thinking about some of my mom's friends who were survivors and very difficult people to get along with. But then I reflected a bit more and realized that I knew plenty of other survivors who are not difficult to get along with. They may have other personality issues such as demanding perfection from their children, but they still have manners.

Furthermore, the pool of living Holocaust survivors is shrinking by the day. A person who was fifteen years old in 1945 is 85 today. It is doubtful that there are many Holocaust survivors still driving. The people on the road today are at most the children of survivors, more likely the grandchildren and great-grandchildren thereof. What's THEIR excuse?
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 05 2015, 4:48 pm
chani8 wrote:
I've not seen this kind of behavior since I've been living in a mixed small town in Israel. Everyone is nice and well mannered. I think it's a big city mentality.

I agree, but I'd go even further and say that some of it isn't just city mentality, it's city manners.

I've lived in small towns and shopped in small town stores. If you bump into me in a small town store, you obviously weren't paying attention to where you were walking, and should apologize. If OTOH you bump into me in the local big city frum store, where 100 people are trying to shop in a place with aisles just slightly wider than the average skinny teenager - please don't apologize. We're all going to be bumping into each other a lot, and I don't want to hear "sorry" 100 times. I'm a city person, I'm very busy (or at least, I like to think I am).

If I saw someone and it looked like they were just standing and looking at the frozen foods, I'd definitely get in and take what I needed. It's what's expected. Nobody expects someone to stand and wait for them to decide; that would be creepy (and would create a traffic jam in the aisles every time someone took more than a few seconds to decide between flavors of jelly). OTOH, if someone has the door open and is reaching for something, pushing in front of them is very rude.

In Israel some of it is also body language and speed. It's expected that if you're next in line, you will be... assertive... in getting the salesperson's attention without about 0.5 seconds of them dealing with the last person. If you don't, everyone just kind of assumes that you've just been standing in line for fun, and that your turn is forfeit. Again, city manners. We don't have time for people to take a full second to start talking.
(I'm exaggerating a bit. In most places you have two seconds. Polite people will ask if you were next in line before taking your turn, although they will think it's strange you need to be prompted.)

I think sneakermom has a good point about poor planning, too. Just one example, I've seen well-run doctors' offices here and poorly-run offices, and it is night and day in terms of manners. In the same neighborhood. A lot of people are acting rudely only because they think/realize that it's the only way to ensure they'll get what they need. Take that factor away, and most people are perfectly polite. Similarly, hareidi shoppers are perfectly laid back and polite in the large chain supermarkets (which have a lot more space and much shorter lines than the "frum" stores).

All that doesn't excuse actual rudeness-by-any-standards-rudeness, which also happens.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 05 2015, 4:51 pm
Carmen Luna wrote:
YOUR DH YANKED HIS PAYOS FOR CUTTING THE LINE (OR SOMETHING SOMETHING TO THAT EXTENT)?? AND THEN BELTED HIM? WOW! YOUR DH SOUNDS LIKE A BOWL FULL OF CHERRIES. Besides, this just proves the point that the frum people are more mannered. your dh went to PS so he acted like his Italian friends. Im sorry, but I find your little anecdote disturbing

I would have "liked" this, but I find it disturbing that you're blaming the Italians. Who said they had anything to do with it??

But yeah, physically assaulting someone for being rude is way, way over the top.
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amother
Wheat


 

Post Sun, Jul 05 2015, 4:56 pm
momX4 wrote:
You have to teach your kids to push to keep their place in line, unfortunately. I once put my ds on the deli line for a small order. When he was next I walked away to continue my shopping. I came back only to find 3 people INFRONT of my DS. This is so unacceptable! Same thing happened at a different shopping trip where a DC went to pay. Everyone pushed infront.


People don't always realize that a child is waiting for help. I work in a store, and quite a few times I ignored a child thinking that they were with the adult right behind them in line. I personally don't send my kids shopping until their teens, I don't think it's fair to them or to the people working in the store. There are so many times that I have to help young kids figure out what their mother really wants, or the kid doesn't have enough money and doesn't know what to do, or after I helped them for ten minutes, the mother comes running in to the store complaining that they bought the wrong thing. Why couldn't she come in originally and spare myself and her child the headache??
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Carmen Luna




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 05 2015, 5:08 pm
ora_43 wrote:
I would have "liked" this, but I find it disturbing that you're blaming the Italians. Who said they had anything to do with it??

But yeah, physically assaulting someone for being rude is way, way over the top.


Thats totally not what I was implying. She mentioned that her DH went to PS with Italians, and that's why he knows how to "defend" himself, hence my "targeting" the Italians.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 05 2015, 5:16 pm
ora_43 wrote:
I agree, but I'd go even further and say that some of it isn't just city mentality, it's city manners.

I've lived in small towns and shopped in small town stores. If you bump into me in a small town store, you obviously weren't paying attention to where you were walking, and should apologize. If OTOH you bump into me in the local big city frum store, where 100 people are trying to shop in a place with aisles just slightly wider than the average skinny teenager - please don't apologize. We're all going to be bumping into each other a lot, and I don't want to hear "sorry" 100 times. I'm a city person, I'm very busy (or at least, I like to think I am).

If I saw someone and it looked like they were just standing and looking at the frozen foods, I'd definitely get in and take what I needed. It's what's expected. Nobody expects someone to stand and wait for them to decide; that would be creepy (and would create a traffic jam in the aisles every time someone took more than a few seconds to decide between flavors of jelly). OTOH, if someone has the door open and is reaching for something, pushing in front of them is very rude.

In Israel some of it is also body language and speed. It's expected that if you're next in line, you will be... assertive... in getting the salesperson's attention without about 0.5 seconds of them dealing with the last person. If you don't, everyone just kind of assumes that you've just been standing in line for fun, and that your turn is forfeit. Again, city manners. We don't have time for people to take a full second to start talking.
(I'm exaggerating a bit. In most places you have two seconds. Polite people will ask if you were next in line before taking your turn, although they will think it's strange you need to be prompted.)

I think sneakermom has a good point about poor planning, too. Just one example, I've seen well-run doctors' offices here and poorly-run offices, and it is night and day in terms of manners. In the same neighborhood. A lot of people are acting rudely only because they think/realize that it's the only way to ensure they'll get what they need. Take that factor away, and most people are perfectly polite. Similarly, hareidi shoppers are perfectly laid back and polite in the large chain supermarkets (which have a lot more space and much shorter lines than the "frum" stores).

All that doesn't excuse actual rudeness-by-any-standards-rudeness, which also happens.


I live in Monsey - suburbia. This excuse doesn't fit. I lived in non frum suburban areas and didn't have this problem. Orange county is rural for the most part. The difference between the way non frum and the way frum people act is astonishing. In Walmart where arguably you are not shopping with those from only the most refined parts of society, I cringe when I see the frum people treating the cashiers like dirt. They are human also.
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momX4




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 05 2015, 5:21 pm
amother wrote:
People don't always realize that a child is waiting for help. I work in a store, and quite a few times I ignored a child thinking that they were with the adult right behind them in line. I personally don't send my kids shopping until their teens, I don't think it's fair to them or to the people working in the store. There are so many times that I have to help young kids figure out what their mother really wants, or the kid doesn't have enough money and doesn't know what to do, or after I helped them for ten minutes, the mother comes running in to the store complaining that they bought the wrong thing. Why couldn't she come in originally and spare myself and her child the headache??


My DS is short for his age. At the deli it was a simple request. The person behind him I assume didnt allow my DS speak up when they said next. As a mom I am very aware when there are kids shopping. I try to help them if I can, but I would never cut infront of them.

Sending a child to the grocery store is acceptable. Its wrong to cut them on line.

I dont know what type of store you have, but there are many things I will never let my kids shop for on their own. If it happens to often I would suggest to maybe request to call the mom on the phone to confirm the purchase. Its a tremendous help when we dont have to run out for everything. The store that provides the extra service is the one that gets my business.
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Frumdoc




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 05 2015, 5:36 pm
I see this happening in many places, shoving, shouting and especially bad driving and double parking on erev shabbos. I also see it when people are stressed at other times of year, eg Xmas in the local mall.

I don't think it relates more to one community than another, or rather, I don't think discussion around which community it is worst in is productive, rather, for each of us to go and demonstrate good behavior will iyh promote this in one small area that might have a chance of spreading in concentric circles and influencing more people until everyone is exposed to better behavior and manners.

Just like smiling at a stranger will brighten their day, and they then pay it forward, we can do the same with good manners.

(It is more satisfying to get angry and behave badly in response, but produces a negative ripple effect that just promotes sinas chinum.)
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 05 2015, 6:14 pm
The guy wasn't just "being rude"
Dh said he shoved him
If you want to be splattered stay out of the paintball arena
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amother
Vermilion


 

Post Sun, Jul 05 2015, 8:50 pm
Maybe it's the effect a country or city has on you. I live in Montreal in a very frum chassidish neighborhood and I've never encountered rude behavior when shopping in the local stores. Canadians are very polite and soare the frum yidden here.

So who's influencing whom?
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