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Discussing non-Jews with children
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amother
Puce


 

Post Mon, Jul 06 2015, 1:24 am
I took my children to the park this afternoon to give DH some peace and quiet because he wasn't fasting well (I broke my fast at chatzos since I'm nursing).

My oldest, a 7 year old girl, really wanted to go on the swings. When I pointed out that one was free, she demurred because she didn't want to sit next to someone non-Jewish. Yes, that was her wording, not Imamother autocorrect.

I was flabbergasted. She couldn't possibly have picked up that attitude at home. I'm quite sure about that. So it must have come from school and/or friends. And now I'm not sure what to do about it.

I had a talk with her on the way home from the park, but I don't think she paid much attention to what I was saying. I tried telling her that she wouldn't like it if someone didn't want to sit next to her because she was Jewish and gave her a very abbreviated history lesson of what had happened over the years when people decide they just don't like Jews.

I realized I made a mistake when I discussed the issue with DH over dinner and he asked why she didn't want to sit next to a non-Jewish person. I never asked her why! I just talked at her.

So I want to revisit the subject again this week with DD, but I'm not sure how to best approach it. Thoughts?
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 06 2015, 1:28 am
Just say something like "remember the other day when you mentioend that you didnt want to sit next to that person at the park because they were not jewish, can you tell me why you didnt want to sit next to them?"

I think its not as big of a deal as you may think it is. I have told my daughter all about how hashem has made many different types of people and that there are many different religions and that they are all hashem's creatures. She is also 7. She sees arab workers in our yishuv every day. She knows that they are hashem's creatures as well. Thats pretty much the end of the story. Its not such a big deal.
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 06 2015, 2:00 am
I hope this won't hijack the thread too much, but can we broaden this conversation a bit? My DD is not-yet-5 and is becoming very (embarrassingly sometimes) conscious of this. I suspect she is also picking up some attitudes in school that are a little too harsh for my liking, or maybe it's just the age of black-and-white thinking (e.g. non-Jew = bad, Jew = good. Also, the word g-o-y she definitely did not learn at home and now mysteriously knows.)

But she is always commenting and asking about Jew/non-Jew things, I think it's an intellectual curiosity, developing this new concept, and I'm not sure exactly how to address it - most especially the part where it is not a good idea to blare in public. She happens to be extremely talkative and uninhibited with a loudish high-pitched voice so I really go red when we're out and about and she pipes up with something like "Is that person Jewish?" or "That person isn't Jewish, right?" or when choosing products in a store "Maybe it's not kosher and it's only there for the not Jewish people." or whatever she decides to comment on.

I have told her not to say these things in public because it could make someone feel bad that they're not as lucky as us to have the Torah, and we can discuss it at home if she wants. Don't know if that's had an impact yet. But even when we are home, sometimes she stumps me. I am not sure how to respond when she says something offensive that she surely picked up from a friend or school, either.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 06 2015, 3:43 am
This is what comes from a lack of diversity. I an fortunate to be raising DD in a racially and religiously mixed OOT area, so we get lots of chances to have these conversations.

We are also fortunate to have many Jews at out shul who are from all across the globe - some gerim, some BT's, and some FFB. You can't assume anything about anybody - EVER.

Teach your child not to judge by what they see on the outside, but by the other person's BEHAVIOR. Teach your child what is appropriate way to deal with "stranger kids" the same way they would approach anyone else they don't know - not with fear, but with an open mind and a certain degree of alertness.

Overall, remind your child that there are good and bad Jews (just check the Torah!), good and bad gentiles, and good and bad in any race or color. The only way to know if a person is approachable is to watch what they do, listen to what they say, and process the information they give you.

When Moshiach comes (soon and in our days!), we will be surrounded by all the Jews who have been scattered throughout the world, and it's a pretty good guess that a lot of them won't look like you or me. I'm also willing to bet that a lot of these "non Jews" have Jewish mothers (or further back matrilineally), and will be standing there with us too. Very Happy
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 06 2015, 4:30 am
I think sometimes children like to be able to categorize people to make sense of the world. My children all wet through a phase where it was very important to comment if someone (strangers in the street) is dati or chiloni. One of my kids was reluctant to get his hair cut because the woman cutting his hair was not religious. I said to him: "She is nice to you and gives you good haircuts. What does her shabbat observance or eating habits have to do with how well she cuts hair? Chiloni Jews need parnassa too, you know!"

Later on, after addressing the specific issue with the hairdresser, I spoke to him about the need to treat all Jews -- and all non-Jews -- well.

I think it is easier to do this if there are specific non-Jews with whom your child comes in contact. It is less an abstract, philosophical conversation when there are actual concrete examples in your child's daily life (clerks in stores you frequent, traffic police on streets you cross, people who deliver the mail you read, etc.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 06 2015, 4:41 am
DrMom, I love the way you handled that! Pure class, all the way around. Very Happy
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amother
Mint


 

Post Mon, Jul 06 2015, 5:09 am
I have similar now with my four year old. He walked outside and really loudly said that our neighbors are allowed to build on shabbos as they are non jews in almost a sing song show off way. I didn't know quite how to respond.

I don't want to say don't show off, we're Hashem's chosen people etc and we're lucky etc because that would give him a sense that we are better than them and it would worsen the problem.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 06 2015, 5:27 am
amother wrote:
I have similar now with my four year old. He walked outside and really loudly said that our neighbors are allowed to build on shabbos as they are non jews in almost a sing song show off way. I didn't know quite how to respond.

I don't want to say don't show off, we're Hashem's chosen people etc and we're lucky etc because that would give him a sense that we are better than them and it would worsen the problem.


I would simply say "Yes, you're right. Non Jews can build on Shabbos. Everyone has a job to do in this world, and everyone has their own rules. Hashem wants us to rest and learn Torah, but He allows non Jews to work if they want to. There's lots of different types of people in the world, and that is what makes everything work out so great!"

If your son likes cars, you could say something like "One part is a wheel, and another is an engine. The wheel can't turn without an engine, and and engine can't go anywhere without a wheel. Now, which one is more important?" Soon he'll see that as human beings we are more connected that he thinks.
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studying_torah




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 06 2015, 6:17 am
Yes my kids picked up on this in our past neighborhood and school system. In fact, my kids were taught that Jews are better than non jews.
I was horrified when my very sweet dd told my nanny she won't go play near non jewish kids , bec they're not jewish.
We have explained so many times that we r not better, just different, but they learned that we r the chosen nation etc and it is very ingrained.
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salt




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 06 2015, 6:23 am
Are all you people in Israel or other places? I thought it was only Israeli kids that have never really come across non-Jews before, apart from Arabs, who think that all non-Jews are bad.
It's to be expected really - what kind of non-Jews do they learn about - Antiochus and the Greeks, Achasveriosh, Nebuchadnezzar, Amalek, you name it - they're all non jews and they're all bad.
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 06 2015, 6:41 am
Israeli kids come across Jewish kids of different levels of observance. I find this a little trickier to explain than people who aren't Jewish.
We teach our children that mitzvos a good middos are what Hashem wants of us. They have trouble understanding why those people who are also Jewish don't try to make Hashem happy. (Their words, not mine)
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 06 2015, 6:49 am
I'm in Israel, but I don't think that's the issue. We have neighbors who aren't Jewish, and my kids even have relatives who aren't Jewish. They still go through a phase of being interested in differences - "that man is driving on Shabbat because he's not Jewish," "But why isn't so-and-so Jewish? How do you know she isn't?" etc.

They also ask about the difference between boy and girl, and between different countries, etc, at around the same age. Usually, they are wildly off, despite knowing many boys and many girls (my 3-year-old asked the other day: "Right, girls say 'pass the water please,' but boys say 'please pass the water'?").

I do think that schools should be careful to not give the wrong impression. Eg, by teaching about non-Jews who helped Jews during the Holocaust when they teach about the Holocaust, or by teaching about Arabs or Muslims who lived peacefully with Jews, or saved Jews, or fought alongside Israel when they're teaching about Israeli wars or terrorism.

But I don't think that would be enough to stop the questions, and even the negative assumptions. It's natural for kids to ask uncomfortable things while they're trying to make sense of all the differences adults see, that aren't always logical.

eta - the thing is, even if kids know non-Jews, they don't connect those people to the concept of "not Jewish" in their brains.
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tigerwife




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 06 2015, 7:04 am
studying_torah wrote:
Yes my kids picked up on this in our past neighborhood and school system. In fact, my kids were taught that Jews are better than non jews.
I was horrified when my very sweet dd told my nanny she won't go play near non jewish kids , bec they're not jewish.
We have explained so many times that we r not better, just different, but they learned that we r the chosen nation etc and it is very ingrained.


How would you go around this? Would you prefer that they not learn that they are the chosen nation?

It's a tricky situation. I do think that children need to realize that they are Hashem's nation and that they need to make a Kiddush 'H. Must that translate into all the other nations are bad?

I agree it's difficult when their education in school mostly highlights the evils (Egyptians, Amalek, the Greeks, etc.). However, during secular history they will learn about many good non-Jews as well.

A small child might be very black and white, but from pre-teen+ they should be able to differentiate the shades of grey, no?
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 06 2015, 7:10 am
Why the embarrassment? Preschoolers say funny things. Usually not pc.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 06 2015, 7:33 am
FTR I think it's normal for little kids to ask extremely un-PC questions. But I agree with OP that if a child is avoiding non-Jews, that's something to deal with.

OP I think your approach sounds fine. Yes, it's good to start with asking why, but everything you said is relevant no matter what her reason was. Just make sure it stays on a 7-year-old level (ie short and sweet).

I agree with shabbatiscoming that you can just ask her directly. Beyond that, maybe find books, videos, etc with positive messages on this.
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gp2.0




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 06 2015, 7:36 am
This is an ongoing conversation that I have with DD. when she came home from school talking about the bad g*yim (the way they taught it in school) who wanted to kill the Jews, I explained that there are good and bad g*yim and there are good and bad jews.

When she pointed out in public in a loud chirpy voice that a man wasn't wearing a kippah so that meant he wasn't Jewish, I explained that some Jews wear other things on their heads besides a kippah like a baseball cap, and some Jews choose not to wear a kippah at all, but they are still Jewish. And I added that it's not nice to talk about other people when they might hear you because it can make them feel uncomfortable.

And so on. Every time it comes up we have a two minute conversation about it and move on. The world is a big place full of complicated concepts and it can't be explained all at once.

Oh, I also already told her the concept that there are more religions than just the Jewish religion and they all have their own rules. That was when she asked me why our Muslim neighbor was covering her entire face with just her eyes peeking out (at first she thought it was funny, like a costume and was very interested to learn that some Muslims dress like that every day because their religion tells them to.)

Oh, she's 5 now. We probably started these conversations around 3 or so.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 06 2015, 7:42 am
salt wrote:
Are all you people in Israel or other places? I thought it was only Israeli kids that have never really come across non-Jews before, apart from Arabs, who think that all non-Jews are bad.
It's to be expected really - what kind of non-Jews do they learn about - Antiochus and the Greeks, Achasveriosh, Nebuchadnezzar, Amalek, you name it - they're all non jews and they're all bad.

There are other non-Jews here besides Arabs:

- Immigrants -- mainly, although not exclusively from the former USSR -- who are not Jewish.

- Filipino workers who are employed caring for elderly people.

- Thai agricultural workers.

- Chinese and Indian international students learning in Israeli universities

- Refugees from Eritea and Sudan
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 06 2015, 8:39 am
I was at the beach with my girls last week, and there was a group of Jewish girls there, I would guess they were around age 10. There was an African-American girl who was trying to socialize with them, and I'm ashamed to say that they were laughing and making racial comments in Hebrew (she was "teaching" them a bit of spanish, saying Hola Amigos...and they were saying words in Hebrew with lots of "Shachor" in it). I think the little girl was confused, but at some point she sensed they were laughing AT her, not WITH her.

I felt so sorry for her, and used it as a springboard for discussion with my own girls - we all agreed it was rude and unkind, and no way for Jewish girls to behave toward other human beings.

OP, continue to talk to your DD. Ask her why she feels she cannot swing beside non-Jews (it could be rooted in fear BTW - one of my DD's went thru a phase where she picked up the notion that they might hurt her, and I explained that it was ok to be near strangers when Mommy is watching....but not when Mommy is not around, etc...) and explain to her that a stranger can (unfortunately) just as well be Jewish or not.....
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 06 2015, 9:20 am
salt wrote:
Are all you people in Israel or other places? I thought it was only Israeli kids that have never really come across non-Jews before, apart from Arabs, who think that all non-Jews are bad.
It's to be expected really - what kind of non-Jews do they learn about - Antiochus and the Greeks, Achasveriosh, Nebuchadnezzar, Amalek, you name it - they're all non jews and they're all bad.
Israeli kids very much come across non Jews. I mentioned in my previous post that my daughter sees arabs every day in our yishuv (building and wday workers)
And I have taught her at a young age that not all arabs are bad. It is very important to me (and my husband) that she never think that all of one kind of person is bad or hates the jews. We want her to understand this. I also have taught her what christians are (we had a berenstain bear book and it mentioned x-mas so I explained that and then what those people are a different religion to us. Thats all. Its not all so hard to explain.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 06 2015, 9:23 am
Iymnok wrote:
Israeli kids come across Jewish kids of different levels of observance. I find this a little trickier to explain than people who aren't Jewish.
We teach our children that mitzvos a good middos are what Hashem wants of us. They have trouble understanding why those people who are also Jewish don't try to make Hashem happy. (Their words, not mine)
My husband and I both have a lot of family who are not religious, here in israel and out of israel. We just explain to our daughter that not every jew knows about every mitzvah. And we have told her that some do know about the mitzvot and do not keep them. But she knows that we do and thats all. She is 7. When she was younger we just told her they did not know and that was that. It was a fine answer for her, at the age of 4.
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