Burka ladies | Imamother

amother

Bronze

Thu, Jul 30 2015, 12:21 pm

Im curious, if you would have someone very close to you who went and joined the group of women that wear burkas, and dresses with these long black clothing with shawls, and would dress her little girls with burkas, claiming to be very happy with her lifestyle, would you do or say anything? I mean someone really close, like a sister...
Please only HONEST answers, put yourself in these shoes and think what your reaction would really be

amother

Ivory

Thu, Jul 30 2015, 1:07 pm

I live in a community where burkas are quite common.
I personally dont believe in this way, but have friends who do and dress this way.
From what I know of the people who dress this way, it is an extreme form of tzniut, and a way for people who feel a need to do the best of the best in their service of Hashem and it is their way of expressing this.
It is not a danger.
Its different.
Im sure people are going to start yelling about vitamin D and child abuse, but I think thats kind of like the way irreligious people view religious people who dress their girls tzniusly...
I can understand your worry, but, at least in my community, it is definatrly not a cult, dangerous or as weird as it looks... I hope this helped a bit...

amother

Bronze

Thu, Jul 30 2015, 2:11 pm

amother wrote:

I appreciate your response, but my question was would be your reaction if your sister /niece/daughter joined the group? How would you behave towards her?

ora_43

Thu, Jul 30 2015, 2:14 pm

I'd be very worried, but I'd think three times before saying anything (and I don't usually even think once, so from me, that's serious).

I disagree with Ivory amother, I think it's usually a sign of some kind of issue. In an extreme form, it can be like anorexia. It's a way for women to make themselves disappear.

Because of that whole aspect, I think confronting someone about it is likely to backfire. It's an emotional need, not something logical that you can debate about and try to convince them of your views. The more you fight it, the harder they cling to it. Or at least that would be my fear.

But if it's someone close, maybe you can help by just staying close, coming to talk with them, acting normal. Acting as if you don't notice their clothes either way. Reminding them that there's a whole big fun world out there. (For people not familiar, the "burka lady" package deal tends to include restrictions on activities and movement. Although maybe not always.)

amother

Lilac

Thu, Jul 30 2015, 2:56 pm

I'd say it depends on the person. I wouldn't make an opinion of, let's say, a sister, just because she dresses a certain way. I'm close to my sisters IRL, so if I find something they do weird, I ask them about it.

From my experience, there are some burka ladies who seem a bit eccentric, even a bit crazy. And there are some other who seem "normal".

I have nothing against this dress style at all. It's more or less the way the women in my family used to dress and I would adopt such a dress style because not only it's part of my family tradition, but it also looks practical IMO. I don't do it for DH and children so that they are not marginalized in the community. So I just dress like everyone else.

Fox

Thu, Jul 30 2015, 3:26 pm

amother wrote:

From my experience, there are some burka ladies who seem a bit eccentric, even a bit crazy. And there are some other who seem "normal".

Just like there are some shaitel-wearing ladies who are a bit eccentric and some who are normal. Just like there are some tichel-wearing ladies who are eccentric and some who are normal. Just like there are pants-wearing ladies . . .

I know I sound like a cultural relativist, but I don't understand why anyone cares about burkas, per se.

In fact, during the summer, I kind of envy Muslim women in my neighborhood who can pop an abaya or burka over their shorts and t-shirts and head out the door . . . while I'm pulling on stockings and my shaitel, etc. I realize the Jewish women we're discussing wear a different type of "burka" -- I'm just making the point that not everything is as it seems.

Obviously, a significant change in *any* observance may signal a need for communication and conversation, but changing some form of observance is *not* ipso facto evidence of pathology.

amother

Mustard

Wed, Aug 12 2015, 3:45 pm

Carmen Luna wrote:

If the OP would've phrased her question if someone really close to her would've went OTD would you say the same thing??? To smack some sense into her?? Why do I feel that in that case you would say to accept her lifestyle etc..

[b] dont make out that becoming a burka lady is less problematic there could be severe abuse there. In those communities wen a man walks in the room the women have to turn to the walls as if they dont exist.
Tznius is beautiful and the torah is pleasant thats why we do not wear burkas. Its a thing of modern times and was not practised by our grandmothers.
The pictures that sector show of ladies bundled up were usually taken in Russia in midwinter. And nobody had covered faces.

Sadie

Wed, Aug 12 2015, 3:53 pm

amother wrote:

I have nothing against this dress style at all. It's more or less the way the women in my family used to dress and I would adopt such a dress style because not only it's part of my family tradition, but it also looks practical IMO. I don't do it for DH and children so that they are not marginalized in the community. So I just dress like everyone else.

I'm curious what your family background is. I thought the "burka" style was a relatively new thing.
Most of what I see in Jerusalem is not actually a real burka though, but a 2 or 3 piece outfit, with a long skirt, a long shawl, and then a head, neck, and face covering. I read that some of these ladies wear 7-10 layers under the outer coverings. While one full-body covering does seem practical, the excessive layering seems like it could be dangerous in the heat.

PinkFridge

Wed, Aug 12 2015, 3:57 pm

Fox wrote:

That we're talking of a different burka is the crux of the matter. I had to google abaya. The traditional ones don't seem any different from burkas. Now I see a fair amount of female Islamic levush and some is quite nice. A bit more covered up than I am but pretty material, so that the wearer clearly has some choice of expression, at least in the material if not in the style. But the heavy duty stuff gives me serious pause.
Here's what I'd say:
DS or whoever, you are aiming for a higher degree of tznius and are taking on this chumra. The way I heard chumra explained is that with careful study, one decides that this is the best way for her/him to perform this mitzvah. I'm sure you've thought this over carefully but the greatest hiddur is to bounce something off one's moreh/morah derech to be sure.

I can't be so sanguine about this. If she's doing this because her moreh derech is telling her to, I'd be very concerned over who the moreh derech is. If she came to this on her own, I'd also be concerned - I think that Ora and NYwife are on to something.

I guess I don't see it very often. If there was a critical mass of people doing it, and they were normal, I'd make peace with it. I have a hard time wrapping my head around it. Hatzlacha!

sourstix

Wed, Aug 12 2015, 4:35 pm

I could see someone trying to do the right thing. but something about it is just not right with me. there is no mesora on this. I cant even explain what is in my head. it just doesnt look normal. there are so many righteous women out there that I can mention now and none do this kind of stuff. I dont understand them. I get freaked out seeing them as I think they are arabs. so no I really dont understand them. as far as op asking how I would react. I would be confused, feel sorry for her, I would probably joke about it at home not in front of her, and let her live but keep an eye on abuse if I did see any I would consult a professional how to go about it. I could see dh would say leave alone dont say anything its not your place. but I do think if you are very close and know she would listen its a responsibility to try to do soemthing.

amother

Bisque

Wed, Aug 12 2015, 4:36 pm

Fox wrote:

Because among Jews today, burkas are primarily worn by the members of a particular cult. The burkas are used by this cult to mask all manner of physical and s*xual abuse of women and girls.

Delores

Wed, Aug 12 2015, 4:38 pm

A friend of mine is going through this with her daughter. I like my friend and care about her and believe she is a good person but I also think she may be partly responsible for how her daughter ended up. My friend has emotional issues that most probably made her a difficult mom to live with. To answer your question : I honestly don't think this would happen to my daughter because she is being raised in a stable open loving home. Also, this is not something that happens overnight. It is a process which allows enough time for intervention before it goes out of hand. I know this post is judgmental about this lifestyle and is likely to offend people, that is not my intention but it is what I believe.

Fox

Wed, Aug 12 2015, 4:53 pm

amother wrote:

Because among Jews today, burkas are primarily worn by the members of a particular cult. The burkas are used by this cult to mask all manner of physical and s*xual abuse of women and girls.

Which is exactly what I've heard many people say about shaitels, tichels, high-denier stockings, or whatever else they find objectionable.

If a loved one has become involved with a kehilla that has practices that are abusive or otherwise problematic, then *that's* the problem -- not whether they're wearing burkas or whatever.