Vegetarians/Vegans

ora_43

Thu, Jul 30 2015, 5:34 am

chani8 wrote:

How humane is it to not drink milk when those poor cows and goats make too much, so they desperately need to be milked. We should just poor it all on the ground. Imagine if we did that to mother's milk. Animal milk is precious.

The milk sold in stores isn't "extra" milk that was causing the cow pain after the calf ate. The cow was inseminated and gave birth, then the calf was taken away, all for the purpose of creating that milk. In some cases, cows are given hormones to increase milk production.

Raisin

Thu, Jul 30 2015, 6:26 am

some people are vegetarians/vegans/pescetarians for humane reasons.
Others just because they don't like meat.
Others for enviromental reasons.
Some for health reasons. (although you can be an unhealthy vegetarian)

I know someone who would eat dairy or eggs if she was sure the animals were treated nicely. Since she can't be sure of that she does not eat them.

chani8

Thu, Jul 30 2015, 7:17 am

Sadie wrote:

Chani, I worked on an organic goat farm, and while the animals were very well treated, sadly the baby goats were never allowed to nurse from their mothers. We bottle fed them pumped goats milk for a few days and then they were transferred to a pen with other babies and fed formula. Their mother's milk went to us.

This is horrible!

chani8

Thu, Jul 30 2015, 7:20 am

ora_43 wrote:

I drink organic cow or goat, hormone free. I suppose this insemination is going on there, too, though. But ok, that's not so bad to me. I just didn't realize the babies never got to nurse. Now I feel like a thief. Poor babies.

bluebird

Thu, Jul 30 2015, 5:31 pm

HITLER WAS NOT A VEGETARIAN!!!

Anyway, if you want to know why I'm vegan, start doing some web searches for factory farming in America. The way we raise, treat throughout their lives, and slaughter animals here is disgusting and against halacha (tzaar baalei Chaim).

By slaughter I'm not referring to schetitah.

chani8

Fri, Jul 31 2015, 12:18 am

bluebird wrote:

Anyway, if you want to know why I'm vegan, start doing some web searches for factory farming in America. The way we raise, treat throughout their lives, and slaughter animals here is disgusting and against halacha (tzaar baalei Chaim).

By slaughter I'm not referring to schetitah.

But I dont see how being vegan accomplishes anything. The factory farmers do not know or care that you are vegan. It doesn't affect them at all. There are not enough people 'fasting against meat' to make a difference.

And contrary to propaganda, schitah isn't all that gentle the way it's done these days. It certainly doesn't negate the way the animals are treated up to that point. They are alive and frightened while their life blood drains away. There was an article about this recently, promoting adding a halachically permitted extra step in cow murder by using a means to sedate the cows.

I'm a cow eater, btw. No agenda other than humane treatment of animals.

vintagebknyc

Fri, Jul 31 2015, 1:49 am

chani8 wrote:

I think you're putting aside a huge concept here: I don't want to be complicit in the killing of any living thing, and it's on my conscience.

amother

Honeydew

Fri, Jul 31 2015, 4:07 am

Right, the factory farms are absolutely depressing and aside from that not exactly producing the healthiest animals.

At one point I was buying meat only from KOL which is a site that sells kosher pastured chickens, grass fed beef, etc. from small farms that treat their animals well. But spending $42 on a chicken was just putting us in the poor house. I really wish buying this sort of meat was more accessible to the non-wealthy. I do still buy pastured eggs and those run me close to $8 a dozen. It's just crazy. I wish I had my own little farm. At least for eggs and dairy.

Eating meat really does make me feel bad. Not for the killing of the animal. I feel we have the right from Hashem to eat them. But the mistreatment is so, so awful.

I was a vegetarian at one point in my life. Maybe when my kids are older and I don't feel the obligation to provide them with meat I'll at least become pescetarian. (Isn't that how you spell it? My spell check doesn't seem to think so).

bluebird

Fri, Jul 31 2015, 6:48 am

chani8 wrote:

If everyone thought like that about everything they objected to, nothing would ever change.

chani8

Fri, Jul 31 2015, 7:21 am

bluebird wrote:

If everyone thought like that about everything they objected to, nothing would ever change.

Those of us who buy from humane chicken and beef farms are letting our money prove our principles. Our money lures farmers into doing the right thing.

I dont buy a certain hechsher on principle and I'm fairly certain no one notices or cares. I have zero effect with that tactic. Same as vegans who dont buy meat because of the treatment of animals. I'm just wondering what a vegan thinks they are accomplishing. Not trying to offend. I'm challenging the logic.

bluebird

Fri, Jul 31 2015, 8:03 am

If you don't want to participate in something you find objectionable, don't. In this case, I do not buy animal products because I do not want to put my money into that system. It doesn't matter if they notice or not. It's for me.

Now, if you want to stop buying something to send a message, then do it. The only reason meat manufacturers don't notice is because I am only one person. But there are billions of only one persons on the planet, and if enough of them band together they can effect change with their wallets or otherwise. It has to start with one person, then spread to a few people, them more. I'm not even saying this about veganism; this is how boycotts work for everything.

Chani, I don't know what I can say otherwise. I don't know what you're not getting.

Raisin

Fri, Jul 31 2015, 8:11 am

I'm not a vegetarian but chani8s logic is deeply flawed. Small actions do make a difference. In Israel I think there are the highest proportion of vegans anywhere. I'm sure that has affected the meat production in some way. Look at how free range eggs are now widely available and commonplace, at least where I live.

Dolly Welsh

Fri, Jul 31 2015, 8:15 am

chani8 wrote:

This is horrible!

Why? Surely you are not concerned about the socialization and language skills of goats. Goats don't talk. These got the food they needed. They were with other goats and not alone. Maternal feelings and the need for one's own particular mother may not be the same in goats as in us. You are positing goat orphans. Is there such a thing as a goat orphan? The creature should be well treated, but yes, we keep him for food. Our food. Not his food. He's a food animal. He's a prey species in nature, too. He's a primary grass converter, he's dinner for the carnivores. Who, in turn, keep the grass eaters down, so there will still be some grass left, which other creatures need to live in. There's a whole world in the grass. It's complicated. "Horrible" is a word that perhaps should be saved for horrors.

When Moshiach comes the world may not be stuck together by eating, as it is now, but in another way. I don't know.

You are very kind, but a goat is a goat. The risk of making animals into people is you can end up making people into animals. And they aren't. A goat remains a goat, no matter what we think.

chani8

Fri, Jul 31 2015, 8:33 am

I can think of many reasons why we should allow a goat baby to suckle from his mother, even though they become tasty shwarma at the end. Without doing a single google search, I would suggest that both 'kid' and 'mama' let off nice healing hormones when they're together. Without racking my brain for hashkafa, the sheloach haken mitzva comes to mind, which seems to validate that we do care how a mother bird feels. We don't boil a kid in it's mother's milk. We do care. We care about the mother at least. And we know that a baby monkey shrivels up and dies without love. So perhaps we'd have healthier goats if they were allowed a decent amount of time with mama's love. Just supposing.

chani8

Fri, Jul 31 2015, 8:38 am

Raisin wrote:

Was it the acts of the vegans that brought this about? How can that be when they are vegan (no eggs)? No, it was the acts of those insisting on humane chicken raising, those of us who pay for free range eggs, and buy free range chicken and milk and beef. What are the vegans accomplishing? Apparently, I learned today, they feel better on a personal level.

bluebird

Fri, Jul 31 2015, 9:24 am

Unfortunately, "cage free" and "free range" don't mean what you think they do. It's usually the same conditions, but without cages. So now you have the same overcrowding of birds but just in one large mass instead of lots of smaller ones. And organic? That means literally nothing iin relation to animal welfare.

This is a good article.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new......html

Look, I don't think it's inherently wrong to eat meat. But if you eat it, be honest and informed about how it gets to hour plate beginning with conception. If you're OK with what you find, that's your choice. If you find those sources that really do treat their animals humanely, then I'm all for you eating there. But know, really know, what you're eating.

bluebird

Fri, Jul 31 2015, 9:38 am

chani8 wrote:

I really feel like you're being hostile about this.

Dolly Welsh

Fri, Jul 31 2015, 9:49 am

Her tone is irritated but her point is unassailable: not buying eggs doesn't affect how eggs are produced. Whereas, buying free range eggs encourages a different way of producing eggs.

Her hostility real or imaginary is not one little bit the issue. It, too, does not affect the production methods of eggs.

Veganism isn't healthy. It has the potential if widespread of discouraging the production of healthy food or at least of raising its price. I feel hostile toward it also.

Even vegetarianism, lacto-uovo, causes weight gain in some.

People react differently to food and should eat what suits them personally. Genetics vary. What your friend experienced may not be the same with you.

There is no arguing with human canine teeth. They aren't there for decoration. They are fangs. Vegetable eaters don't have them.

For me one religion is enough; kashrus is important to me, and I trust that the animals I eat were killed as quickly as possible.

I personally need high quality protein to be well and strong. I don't need cheese or milk, but children need milk. I certainly need eggs and use a lot of them.

I am one of the people vegans hurt. I resent that. If there enough vegans, I would not have what I need. To me, that is bad.

smss

Fri, Jul 31 2015, 9:53 am

Personally, I think factory farming is horrible and also makes the animals we eat less healthy for us, and if I had the money I would spend it on pastured (no, not cage-free, as was mentioned that doesn't actually mean anything) eggs and grass-fed meat and wild fish. But since I don't, I am not going to stop eating meat, fish, and eggs. There are nutrients and vitamins which we can ONLY get from these sources and not from plants.