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2 incomes and still not making it
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 03 2015, 2:54 am
So I had to read this thread because I've been grumbling against the cost of living in Israel.

I stand corrected on my complaints and have to say, move to Israel, OP.

I used to say, If I'm going to be poor, at least let me be in Israel.

Everywhere people are struggling financially. It's just part of life for most people. Even a millionaire thinks he doesn't have enough.

You sound like you're living in a lovely home and are paying your bills, but don't have extra. You made a choice for the fancy home. Spend time focusing on and enjoying the fruit of your labor, your home.

Learn to do your own nails and brew your own fancy coffee. Or cut back somewhere else so you can have those things. It's really all just math. You have an income, do the math to make it work. It would be different if you had no income.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 03 2015, 7:00 am
OP, about date night:

Can you barter for babysitting hours with a friend? If you both only work 40 hours, there is probably a few evenings a week where you are both home and one of you can go out and babysit for a friend and swap for a different night. Then your actual date can be walking around a nice lake or free museum nights or something.

As to your house: have you talked to your landlord about reducing your rent or terms of the rental? That lease is killing you. It's a HUGE expense. Explain that your income isn't keeping up the way you thought it would and you need a reduction or a reduced lease time.

Find a much cheaper place to move into. Even if you *only* reduce your rent by $500/month, that's $6,000/year. In Illinois, I wouldn't be surprised if you could shave $800 off your rent, even if it's much smaller.
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GreenEyes26




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 03 2015, 7:04 am
TwinsMommy wrote:
No kollel would accept my husband. We are BT. He's in kollel dirshu every morning but no stipend. People have suggested I stop working because on his income alone wed qualify for food stamps or whatever. Because of our debts and not qualifying for help because I'm working.... The kollelniks take vacations and we don't. Smile


I don't mean for this to come off sounding offensive, but you seem like a woman with her head screwed on straight. It's all very nice that your husband loves his job, but for 20k/year, that's almost losing money. A lot of us would love to work in jobs that pay very little but that we would love more. Finances and responsibilities keep us working in less-fun, better paying positions. What's rhe reasoning behind a guy keeping a 20k job with a family to support?
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fluffernutter




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 03 2015, 8:21 am
This could be a totally crazy idea - but what is the penalty for breaking the lease and finding something cheaper. If it would reduce rent by 700-900 then it would be very worth it depending on how much is left to your lease, no? Is that doable?
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 03 2015, 8:33 am
fluffernutter wrote:
This could be a totally crazy idea - but what is the penalty for breaking the lease and finding something cheaper. If it would reduce rent by 700-900 then it would be very worth it depending on how much is left to your lease, no? Is that doable?


You are liable for rent until the landlord rents again so it would be at the least one if not two months. It could be more depending on what the rental market is.

It would also cause you to be blackballed for future rentals in many areas and it would ding your credit record as well.

As others have posted, economic strain should improve in the next few years because cost of child care will be less and perhaps since they know tje area, they can find less expensive housing.

In the meantime, all OP can do is hang on and realize that she is not alone and many people are in same boat as part of the middle middle class.
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amother
Goldenrod


 

Post Mon, Aug 03 2015, 10:03 am
I think you should definitely speak to an accountant as child care could be deducted or paid directly by the employer, perhaps health insurance as well - taking directly out of your salary, pre-tax, so your income would be lower and you'd be taxed less. The car, gas some of these expenses could be deducted maybe too.

Also, have you considered Obama Care which is government subsidized insurance based on income - apparently with very high deductibles - but you may have that already.
You can use a calculating tool to see how much you'd pay, based on your income and family size.
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 03 2015, 10:24 am
amother wrote:
I think you should definitely speak to an accountant as child care could be deducted or paid directly by the employer, perhaps health insurance as well - taking directly out of your salary, pre-tax, so your income would be lower and you'd be taxed less. The car, gas some of these expenses could be deducted maybe too.

Also, have you considered Obama Care which is government subsidized insurance based on income - apparently with very high deductibles - but you may have that already.
You can use a calculating tool to see how much you'd pay, based on your income and family size.


I think OP is receiving health insurance through an employer and so the monthly amount is that which is charged for spouse and children. It's not an exorbitant rate especially if the health plan is generous as many corporate plans are since typically a company charges an additional cost for dependents to be added. However, considering that good coverage for a family of four is probably in excess of $1000 per month, it's still a bargain.

Since OP receives health coverage through an employer, she can't purchase on an Exchange which is what I think you are speaking of in terms of "Obamacare". Even if she could purchase through an Exchange, the amount of subsidy available at her income level would still mean that premiums would be at least $400 per month if not more.

Also, and slightly off topic, Obamacare doesn't mean that one has high deductibles. There are four levels of insurance and depending on which one you choose, you can have zero deductibles and low co-payments - I.e. Platinum Level Coverage. However, the premium reflects that so most people make a decision based on whether they see a doctor frequently. So it's your choice. I am digressing but people talk about "Obamacare".
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amother
Jade


 

Post Mon, Aug 03 2015, 10:30 am
amother wrote:
I think you should definitely speak to an accountant as child care could be deducted or paid directly by the employer, perhaps health insurance as well - taking directly out of your salary, pre-tax, so your income would be lower and you'd be taxed less. The car, gas some of these expenses could be deducted maybe too.

Also, have you considered Obama Care which is government subsidized insurance based on income - apparently with very high deductibles - but you may have that already.
You can use a calculating tool to see how much you'd pay, based on your income and family size.

You can't get Obamacare if you are eligible to get insurance through your employer. Although it may be worth looking into getting it for the husband and children and then OP just uses the work plan for herself. That doesn't always work out cheaper, but sometimes it does, so it's worth crunching the numbers. Also, don't make such a switch without being 1000% sure your kids' doctors will accept it. Obamacare is notorious for not only forcing a change in doctors, but often those doctors may be in an entirely different city, but 25 miles is considered "local".
I highly doubt OP's health insurance and childcare are post tax, especially as she mentions an FSA. Sounds like her workplace offers real benefits and presumably does so correctly in terms of taxes.
My advice to OP- comb through your budget again. See where everything is really going. Do what you can to manage till the lease is up and move to a cheaper home.
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 03 2015, 10:37 am
amother wrote:
You can't get Obamacare if you are eligible to get insurance through your employer. Although it may be worth looking into getting it for the husband and children and then OP just uses the work plan for herself. That doesn't always work out cheaper, but sometimes it does, so it's worth crunching the numbers. Also, don't make such a switch without being 1000% sure your kids' doctors will accept it. Obamacare is notorious for not only forcing a change in doctors, but often those doctors may be in an entirely different city, but 25 miles is considered "local".
I highly doubt OP's health insurance and childcare are post tax, especially as she mentions an FSA. Sounds like her workplace offers real benefits and presumably does so correctly in terms of taxes.
My advice to OP- comb through your budget again. See where everything is really going. Do what you can to manage till the lease is up and move to a cheaper home.


At the risk of digressing, there is no such thing as "Obamacare" as a specific entity like Medicaid.

If you purchase through the Exchange because you are not getting health insurance through an employer, you have the choice of different plans offered by private insurance companies.
Each insurance company determines what they will charge and make contracts with health providers. As a rule of thumb, you will pay less in premiums for HMO which have smaller networks and more for a EPO and in the middle for a PPO. However, if one wants Platinum level coverage with a broad network, one can certainly opt for that if one wants to pay the highest premiums.

If you are insured through an employer, you can't get insurance through the Exchange for a spouse or children. You are, of course, free to get private coverage for spouse and children but based on my experience purchasing health insurance for companies and individuals, it is extremely unlikely that coverage for an adult and two children would be less than $400 especially since employer coverage generally offers better coverage for the amount paid by an employee.


Last edited by Amarante on Mon, Aug 03 2015, 10:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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TwinsMommy




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 03 2015, 10:37 am
this thread isn't about my husband but because you asked....

we moved to cleveland in 2005 so he could take a position teaching limudei kodesh at a non Orthodox Jewish school. We became frum while grad students at the University of Judaism (now American Jewish University). so he has an MAEd which allows him to teach limudei kodesh, but no teaching credential to teach secular studies in a public or private school. From grad school (1998) until 2008 he made between 35,000 and 60,000 depending on the school. Because we became frum, he can't run a synagogue religious school (they all involve Shabbos work-- at least here they do). The other thing the degree is good for is teaching Jewish studies in Reform and Conservative schools. Anyway, he liked the job but was fired in 2008 (probably because he's frum but he can't prove that--- I think they were ok with him when they through he was super modern and would blend in, but then his more black hat personality came to the surface. Also the school went more left wing and really just wants Cosnervative Rabbis on board now for limudei kodesh). Since then, EVERY summer he's applied to 30-50 entry level positions outside of education and been told he's 'over qualified' for anything else. (he's 41 so he's not a young 20 something that people are willing to train) There are only 2 non Orthodox day schools in Cleveland. The other one wants to hire him but never has a position available. The Orthodox schools can only hire him to teach secular studies, and only with a teaching credential. Teaching limudei kodesh at a frum school is out of the question as a BT with no Yeshiva background--- he's in kollel dirshu every morning but they won't even let him sub limudei kodesh.

We thought about moving, but THAT would cost thousands and who's to say that another Conservative day school won't fire him down the road and we'd be in the same pickle anyway--- so we decided to stick with Cleveland---- we'd rather live in a cardboard box here than move to LA or NY.

The cheapest way for him to get a teaching credential would be $13,000. We are in so much debt we can't imagine another $13,000. But we might do it at some point to get him out of this rut so he can teach public school at some point-- he'd love to go back to teaching. He's been a one on one aide for a special needs student since 2008.

Anyway, we live in a house and aren't on food stamps--- I see friends living in apartments on food stamps--- so though our situation seems bleak, we're ok and trying to figure it out.
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amother
Bronze


 

Post Mon, Aug 03 2015, 10:38 am
Amarante wrote:
I think OP is receiving health insurance through an employer and so the monthly amount is that which is charged for spouse and children. It's not an exorbitant rate especially if the health plan is generous as many corporate plans are since typically a company charges an additional cost for dependents to be added. However, considering that good coverage for a family of four is probably in excess of $1000 per month, it's still a bargain.

Since OP receives health coverage through an employer, she can't purchase on an Exchange which is what I think you are speaking of in terms of "Obamacare". Even if she could purchase through an Exchange, the amount of subsidy available at her income level would still mean that premiums would be at least $400 per month if not more.

Also, and slightly off topic, Obamacare doesn't mean that one has high deductibles. There are four levels of insurance and depending on which one you choose, you can have zero deductibles and low co-payments - I.e. Platinum Level Coverage. However, the premium reflects that so most people make a decision based on whether they see a doctor frequently. So it's your choice. I am digressing but people talk about "Obamacare".

OT as well but if you have any coverage from an employer (even if terrible), so long as the cost for just the primary person isn't above the wages to cost ratio: you get zero subsidy. Nada. Problem we had. The amount for our family brought us way over the wages to cost ratio and we couldn't afford it. Zero subsidy even though our income isn't that high (but too high for government benefits or state child insurance, like jersey care). So we do a private plan for slightly cheaper but better coverage.
But basically she won't get any subsidy.
Imamother as I don't want people IRL to know our private $$$.
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 03 2015, 10:47 am
amother wrote:
OT as well but if you have any coverage from an employer (even if terrible), so long as the cost for just the primary person isn't above the wages to cost ratio: you get zero subsidy. Nada. Problem we had. The amount for our family brought us way over the wages to cost ratio and we couldn't afford it. Zero subsidy even though our income isn't that high (but too high for government benefits or state child insurance, like jersey care). So we do a private plan for slightly cheaper but better coverage.
But basically she won't get any subsidy.
Imamother as I don't want people IRL to know our private $$$.


Yes I agree as that is a bit of a hole in the ACA since you aren't eligible for the subsidy if a spouse gets health care through an employer even if the premiums charged for the non-working spouse and children is very high.

I worked with a small business and it was much better for their employees to end the corporate health insurance and give them a raise to let them purchase through the Exchange since they were ALL eligible for subsidies and were actually better off buying their own. It was really great for them since they were all able to get much better insurance for their whole family for less or about the same as it cost the company just to purchase insurance for the individuals. It was really a win win situation.

Before ACA (Obamacare), it wouldn't have been possible to do this since many people COULD NOT get insurance on the open market so any kind of corporate health insurance was better than nothing.
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amother
Bronze


 

Post Mon, Aug 03 2015, 11:01 am
Amarante wrote:
Yes I agree as that is a bit of a hole in the ACA since you aren't eligible for the subsidy if a spouse gets health care through an employer even if the premiums charged for the non-working spouse and children is very high.

I worked with a small business and it was much better for their employees to end the corporate health insurance and give them a raise to let them purchase through the Exchange since they were ALL eligible for subsidies and were actually better off buying their own. It was really great for them since they were all able to get much better insurance for their whole family for less or about the same as it cost the company just to purchase insurance for the individuals. It was really a win win situation.

Before ACA (Obamacare), it wouldn't have been possible to do this since many people COULD NOT get insurance on the open market so any kind of corporate health insurance was better than nothing.


Its a terrible issue for us. We wish his boss just didn't offer it. But they can't. They have more than 30 full time employees.
Before ACA you could get non employer health insurance. My DH did way before we were married. But also, now prices jumped super high for those not eligible for subsidies so the donut hole seemingly just moved up the chain. We don't make minimum wage but we still can't afford health insurance. Our prices are several hundred dollars above what it was just pre-ACA.
(Oh, and I believe it is a tax. As per the supreme courts ruling..not that it makes much difference to us...)
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 03 2015, 11:10 am
amother wrote:
Its a terrible issue for us. We wish his boss just didn't offer it. But they can't. They have more than 30 full time employees.
Before ACA you could get non employer health insurance. My DH did way before we were married. But also, now prices jumped super high for those not eligible for subsidies so the donut hole seemingly just moved up the chain. We don't make minimum wage but we still can't afford health insurance. Our prices are several hundred dollars above what it was just pre-ACA.
(Oh, and I believe it is a tax. As per the supreme courts ruling..not that it makes much difference to us...)


Unfortunately, the issue of having relatively low income workers not being able to get subsidized health insurance through the Exchange really should be amended so I don't think it was the intent of the legislators but it fell through the crack.

I don't think a lot of people realize how expensive it is for some people to purchase health insurance for their spouse and children through their employer especially if they aren't highly paid and would be eligible for subsidies.

It's really not anybody's fault except that they should amend ACA. Many people don't realize how expensive it is for employers to purchase insurance. The premiums paid by the businesses I worked with were about the same as individual insurance. The only benefit was that that before ACA, lots of people couldn't get insurance and so with an employer plan, you were guaranteed health insurance.

As to whether it's a tax or not, analytically I believe the SC decision was referring to the PENALTY if one doesn't purchase insurance and not the premium itself which is paid to a private insurance company.
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amother
Jade


 

Post Mon, Aug 03 2015, 11:15 am
Amarante wrote:
At the risk of digressing, there is no such thing as "Obamacare" as a specific entity like Medicaid.

If you purchase through the Exchange because you are not getting health insurance through an employer, you have the choice of different plans offered by private insurance companies.
Each insurance company determines what they will charge and make contracts with health providers. As a rule of thumb, you will pay less in premiums for HMO which have smaller networks and more for a EPO and in the middle for a PPO. However, if one wants Platinum level coverage with a broad network, one can certainly opt for that if one wants to pay the highest premiums.

If you are insured through an employer, you can't get insurance through the Exchange for a spouse or children. You are, of course, free to get private coverage for spouse and children but based on my experience purchasing health insurance for companies and individuals, it is extremely unlikely that coverage for an adult and two children would be less than $400 especially since employer coverage generally offers better coverage for the amount paid by an employee.

I am aware, just mist people use the "Obamacare" vernacular to refer to the exchanges. Which, as we both pointed out, you are not eligible for if you can get through work. I agree that it is unlikely that it would be worth it for the spouse and children to get through the exchange, but occasionally it does work out, so it's something to look into that in case. You may be right that the spouse may not be able to, but I've seen people get exchange insurance for just the kids. Maybe it has to do with the state.
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shoshanim999




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 03 2015, 11:15 am
The bigger problem is that while we can try to brainstorm and think of ways for the op to save a few bucks here and there, the cost of raising a frum family is outrageously expensive and very often little thing like washing my own shaetel and not getting my nails done only make a very slight dent in the financial burden.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 03 2015, 11:23 am
Not clear what you mean: OP isn't using a frum school, and kosher food costs the same, so how would her situation be different if she were a Methodist or an atheist? It's not being religious that's the problem here. My upthread remarks could apply to any family at all. Maybe I don't understand?
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mha3484




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 03 2015, 11:23 am
We make far less than the OP but we are so far not in debt because we live extremely cheaply. One car, no vacations including to see family (3 plane tickets=1k), cleaning help/take out in major moderation. I have a hard time with coffee but I am working on it.

DH works from home davka so we dont have to pay 1k a month for daycare. We live in a 2br and have no plans to move any time soon. We have one year of cheaper tuition left and then things will get really hard. Its scary but I daven our income grows with our kids and we can keep the simple same standard of living with it.
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 03 2015, 11:31 am
amother wrote:
I am aware, just mist people use the "Obamacare" vernacular to refer to the exchanges. Which, as we both pointed out, you are not eligible for if you can get through work. I agree that it is unlikely that it would be worth it for the spouse and children to get through the exchange, but occasionally it does work out, so it's something to look into that in case. You may be right that the spouse may not be able to, but I've seen people get exchange insurance for just the kids. Maybe it has to do with the state.


Just to clarify, the issue is that if you have employer insurance, your spouse and children can't get a subsidy even if the cost of the insurance through the employer is high and the wages of the employee would qualify the employee for a subsidy. It's an insane situation but unfortunately given the politics, it's unlikely that it will be amended. You can get insurance but just wouldn't make sense for most people without a subsidy.

Without a subsidy, it's unlikely that an adult and two children could be insured for less than $400 per month especially since often the corporate health insurance plans are more generous than what one could purchase with the equivalent amount on the market place because some employers subsidize dependent insurance to some degree and also because some larger corporations do get the benefit of lower rates than an individual can get on the marketplace.
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shoshanim999




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 03 2015, 11:38 am
mha3484 wrote:
We make far less than the OP but we are so far not in debt because we live extremely cheaply. One car, no vacations including to see family (3 plane tickets=1k), cleaning help/take out in major moderation. I have a hard time with coffee but I am working on it.

DH works from home davka so we dont have to pay 1k a month for daycare. We live in a 2br and have no plans to move any time soon. We have one year of cheaper tuition left and then things will get really hard. Its scary but I daven our income grows with our kids and we can keep the simple same standard of living with it.



If your implying that its reasonable for a medium sized family to live on a few thousand a month.....thats absurd. It sounds like you have 1 kid (you mentioned 3 plane tickets) maybe you can pull it off now but this is not gonna work for a bigger family.
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