Burka ladies | Imamother

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 1:29 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

Is there a reason they are marginalized besides that they are copying the muslim dress code? Because otherwise I only hear peoples chumras and sensitivities in tznius being praised.

I'll quote Silbergirl, 12:24:
If thats your family mesorah, okay. If youre Sefardic and your greatgrandmother wore that and you feel you want to keep up tradition, go for it.
BUT what bothers me about it is that it is being portrayed as more "tzniusdik". Its this "frummer than thou" competition going on. With burqua jews being the most extreme thing nowadays. But I am waiting for the day to come when your kids wont find a shidduch/noone will eat in your house/ allow your kids to school/talk to you if youre not a burqua wearer.
A burqua is NOT more tzniusdik, to the contrary, it attracts more attention imho. All major Gedolim have strongly spoken out against it.

Unless its your mesorah (but then please wear those beautiful colorful robes the museum pictures here showed and not this Saudi style black burqua ....) there is no reason to wear that. And if a woman wears that, then please do not tell other women theyre immodest or not tzniusdik enough if they dont comply to complete cover up.

I find copying the Muslim dress disconcerting. But I find extreme chumras of any sort unhealthy. There are yechidim such as Rav Scheinberg, zt'l (think of his tzitzis) and yet he discouraged other people taking this on and exuded simcha and health.
I remember when school uniforms became prevalent, people bemoaned the fact ("fact"?) that now girls would have fewer opportunities to make positive tzniusdik choices. Personally, I like uniforms, and find the girls still have ample opportunity of choice. Because I feel that choice is really important. For many of us, our clothes choices are circumscribed by our standards and budget and yet it's still an opportunity for individual expression. Something like burkas, where this is no choice whatsoever, reeks of unhealthiness.

And I don't care how high the sensitivities are being praised. If such a radical change doesn't have the haskama of people I can respect I can't buy into it. (And frankly, I would probably have a hard time continuing to respect someone who did wholeheartedly embrace it as a lechatchila.)

peanutsmom

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 1:52 pm

MrsDash wrote:

I would smack some sense into her both figuratively and literally.

would you do this if s/o went off the derech also? and walked around practically naked?

ora_43

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 3:11 pm

Fox wrote:

Which is exactly what I've heard many people say about shaitels, tichels, high-denier stockings, or whatever else they find objectionable.

If a loved one has become involved with a kehilla that has practices that are abusive or otherwise problematic, then *that's* the problem -- not whether they're wearing burkas or whatever.

I don't think you can separate the two in this case. There is no such thing as a "burka lady" (in the Israeli orthodox sense) who, say, works in an office. It's part of a whole way of seeing the world that leads to things like women not leaving the house, or teenage girls being "homeschooled" (with a home-ec-only curriculum).

And to be honest, even if that wasn't the case - I think we have to balance logic and gut instinct when it comes to these things. Yes, one could argue that wearing so many layers of clothing that a passerby couldn't say for sure that you have a human body is no different, really, than wearing stockings when other people have bare legs. Similarly, one could argue that going topless is no different, really, than wearing a bikini.

But there is a difference. Maybe it's not a logical difference, but we're talking human emotion and motivation here, not logic.

MrsDash

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 3:36 pm

peanutsmom wrote:

would you do this if s/o went off the derech also? and walked around practically naked?

Walking around almost naked, yes I would do the same. Going off the derech, not so much. Are you really comparing a cult-like lifestyle to someone who isn't frum and can return at any point?

Shuly

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 4:11 pm

There is a major issue with a cult-mentality with these women. Another issue, from a halachic view is that this is considering adding on too much to a mitzvah ad that's why there is not one Rav who is ok with it.

I was at a seperate beach this summer and a lady was wearing her long dress and shawl in the ocean! She took off the face covering and just wore a mitpachat on her head, but it looked so unsafe, I really thought she would sink with so many wet layers of clothing.
She had a little girl with her, wearing a "shvimkleid."

Chayalle

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 4:18 pm

pause wrote:

I know that some Middle Eastern ancient Jewish traditions used to cover their neck and maybe their face, possibly because that's what all of society was wearing around them, but it's not a new concept.

(Think of the images we visualize when thinking of Miriam Haneviyah or Sarah Imeinu. Is it a sheitel and hosiery? Not in my mind. I see a a long shawl covering hair and neck, long robe style clothing and sandals.)

To be honest, I have no idea what Sarah Imeinu or Miriam Haneviyah looked like, or how they dressed. Something tells me that if we saw them we'd be in for a surprise, though yes, it likely wasn't sheitel and hosiery.

amother

Blonde

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 6:01 pm

I just came across this post now.
My own mother became trapped into this cult and is living a burka life. She has a totally new life (moved to Israel after my father passed away) with new friends, new ways of thinking - not my mother at all.
This is a cult, as in it takes over your life. She is a different person, we cannot have a normal conversation with her.

Laiya

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 6:43 pm

Chayalle wrote:

This.
I think people imagine the imahos to have dressed a certain way based on pictures or even children's book illustrations they've seen.

In any case, how is this relevant? We don't live in tents, or ride camels, just because the imahos did!

We do have contemporary Rebbetzins and tzidkaniyos we can look to for inspiration, and they don't dress that way or advocate it for others.

Notsobusy

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 7:15 pm

amother wrote:

It must be so hard to watch that happen to your own mother. Hug

Laiya

Thu, Aug 13 2015, 7:22 pm

justcallmeima wrote:

http://forward.com/opinion/israel/309258/jewish-woman-under-the-veil/

Just found this. Hashem Yerachem!

The article makes an interesting point. It's almost as though these women are trying to do literally what the magazines and other chareidi publications have been doing in print--erase women's faces.

amother

Seashell

Fri, Aug 14 2015, 11:55 am

I think there are some different types floating around here. There are burka ladies, shawl ladies and people like my mother, who comes from an Arab country and wears a colorful abaya and a mitpachat pretty often. They are very different mentalities. Shawl ladies tend to still participate in the world. People like my mother certainly do.

PinkFridge

Fri, Aug 14 2015, 4:13 pm

amother wrote:

That one word makes all the difference.