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Anyone happier in public school? (you can go amother)
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would you shun a community member for sending to public school?
yes  
 21%  [ 41 ]
no  
 78%  [ 151 ]
Total Votes : 192



amother
Mauve


 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 6:32 am
amother wrote:
How old are you kids? What gender? Which public school? Would love to look into Brooklyn schools.
My stepsister disliked her Yeshiva HS for many reasons so she switched to Midwood HS (top of the line Brooklyn PS - but years and years ago, don't know now). In college she stopped being religious (she didn't have that strong religious tie as her friends who stayed in Yeshiva HS. She was very open to close friendships from PS HS, whether Jewish or not). She married a nice Jewish boy - not religious at all. Next generation - her daughter finished public HS (of course PS - the parents aren't religious) and in graduate school is now living with her HS boyfriend - not Jewish.

Do you know how high the intermarriage rate is? Google it. (I think it's 50%)
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 8:18 am
study after study has shown that intermarriage and assimilation is lower* among people who attend Jewish schools. t

Thats not to say in exceptional cases public school might indeed be the right place for a frum kid.

Of course, everyone on this board is frum, so anyone here who went to public school is frum. I know tons of people who went to public school who are frum. Even more who are not.

I think it is horrible and counterproductive that frum families are choosing to have less children so they can send them to expensive Jewish schools. Either option there will be less Jewish grandchildren around.

I think charter schools are a good answer for certain people.

*Not non existant.
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amother
Indigo


 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 8:45 am
sequoia wrote:
But they do matter! The more you understand the world, in any area, the less you can be manipulated and deceived.

But you're still missing the point. How many people, including those who went to top public schools or top secular private schools would be able to answer those questions off the cuff more than five years out of high school? Aside from people who end up majoring in chemistry and working in a field where it's relevant daily? That's like 95% of everybody. Does 95% of everybody "not understand the world" just because they can't answer a few specific questions in a specific subject on a test of questionable value, more than a few years after graduating high school?
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 9:39 am
Barbara wrote:
Why is there no way to supplement your children's limudei kodesh? Are you and your husband so uneducated that you are unable to teach them?

Now, I want you to respond to the following 3 questions, without googling:

The formula C2H4 can be classified as
(1) a structural formula, only
(2) a molecular formula, only
(3) both a structural formula and an empirical formula
(4) both a molecular formula and an empirical formula

Given the balanced equation representing a reaction:
4Al(s) + 3O2(g) → 2Al2O3(s)
How many moles of Al(s) react completely with 4.50 moles of O2(g) to produce 3.00 moles of Al2O3(s)?
(1) 1.50 mol
(3) 6.00 mol
(2) 2.00 mol
(4) 4.00 mol

What is the percent composition by mass of oxygen in Ca(NO3)2 (gram-formula mass = 164 g/mol)?
(1) 9.8%
(2) 29%
(3) 48%
(4) 59%

Questions selected at random from June 2015 chemistry regents exam.

If the answer is "we can get a tutor" then the answer to limudei kodesh is also "we can get a tutor."


Barbara, I took Chemistry in high school and college chemistry and work in a field where I deal with material science quite often. I can't answer those questions 15 years out of high school. I probably couldn't answer them 5 months after taking the class :-)

I don't think Regents are a good barometer of a "good education" as I took the Math I regent in 8th grade and got a 97% without learning the material. I missed labeling an axis and something else like that.

I do find Bais Yaakovs for the most part give a decent education. It's the boys schools that really do a terrible job. But if you want more than decent, you really need to choose a MO school.
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amother
Ecru


 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 9:56 am
So where can we find the answers? I think I know the answers to at least 2/3 of them, but I'd like to check that out. Smile
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Geulanow




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 10:05 am
Who will remind your children to say brochos, to daven, to say birkat hamazon in public school? Will your sons be ignorant in Mishna and Gemara? As for the financial part, most yeshivas will help work out tuition plans(scholarships, etc.) with you-you shouldn't be embarrassed by that-a lot of people do that. If you are willing to move to a town without Jewish schools so you wouldn't feel embarrassed sending your children to a public school, maybe you should look in to towns where there are Jewish schools where the children and parents seem happier.I know people who went to yeshivas who are going to universities and medical schools and are doing very well.
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amother
Teal


 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 10:35 am
saw50st8 wrote:
Barbara, I took Chemistry in high school and college chemistry and work in a field where I deal with material science quite often. I can't answer those questions 15 years out of high school. I probably couldn't answer them 5 months after taking the class :-)

I don't think Regents are a good barometer of a "good education" as I took the Math I regent in 8th grade and got a 97% without learning the material. I missed labeling an axis and something else like that.

I do find Bais Yaakovs for the most part give a decent education. It's the boys schools that really do a terrible job. But if you want more than decent, you really need to choose a MO school.


Coming from a public school educated perspective the girls are not taught to think at all! They can only spit back what was learned by route. They are good girls but not original thinkers. They can't synthesize. They must be handed exactly what they are expected to parrot back for the test. I suppose this is what frum society needs to anchor the girls to the roles set forth for them.

This is contrasted strongly to the way the boys are educated. While they lack secular education they are taught to do hard thinking at a young age.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 11:37 am
amother wrote:
Coming from a public school educated perspective the girls are not taught to think at all! They can only spit back what was learned by route. They are good girls but not original thinkers. They can't synthesize. They must be handed exactly what they are expected to parrot back for the test. I suppose this is what frum society needs to anchor the girls to the roles set forth for them.

This is contrasted strongly to the way the boys are educated. While they lack secular education they are taught to do hard thinking at a young age.


I strongly disagree. I went to a bais yaakov high school. We had debates, we wrote essays, we analyzed literature. We analyzed rashi and other meforshim. We had some very strong thinkers among us. Don't make us out to be followers and mindless parrots. I find if highly insulting.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 12:46 pm
saw50st8 wrote:
Barbara, I took Chemistry in high school and college chemistry and work in a field where I deal with material science quite often. I can't answer those questions 15 years out of high school. I probably couldn't answer them 5 months after taking the class :-)

I don't think Regents are a good barometer of a "good education" as I took the Math I regent in 8th grade and got a 97% without learning the material. I missed labeling an axis and something else like that.

I do find Bais Yaakovs for the most part give a decent education. It's the boys schools that really do a terrible job. But if you want more than decent, you really need to choose a MO school.


Far too many people here think that secular education is a joke. Pheh. If I need it, or my kid needs it, he'll pick up a book and learn it. Or I can teach it to him.

If you can't answer some basic questions about a basic subject, how do you anticipate that you're going to teach it to him/her? Its just not that simple.
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amother
Green


 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 12:51 pm
amother wrote:
My stepsister disliked her Yeshiva HS for many reasons so she switched to Midwood HS (top of the line Brooklyn PS - but years and years ago, don't know now). In college she stopped being religious (she didn't have that strong religious tie as her friends who stayed in Yeshiva HS. She was very open to close friendships from PS HS, whether Jewish or not). She married a nice Jewish boy - not religious at all. Next generation - her daughter finished public HS (of course PS - the parents aren't religious) and in graduate school is now living with her HS boyfriend - not Jewish.

Do you know how high the intermarriage rate is? Google it. (I think it's 50%)


One of my friends has a son who graduated from public high school. He spent a year learning in Israel, wears a kippa, davens every morning, and is religious.

Another friend sent her son through yeshiva high school. He's dating a Muslim woman.

DH's cousin also went through yeshiva high school. He became anti-religious, to the point that he encouraged his children to date non-Jews.

What's your point?
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 12:55 pm
Barbara wrote:
Far too many people here think that secular education is a joke. Pheh. If I need it, or my kid needs it, he'll pick up a book and learn it. Or I can teach it to him.

If you can't answer some basic questions about a basic subject, how do you anticipate that you're going to teach it to him/her? Its just not that simple.
.

I hope you're not referring to me. My attitude towards secular studies does not resemble anything close to what you just described.

I just think that you can teach your children to value secular education even while sending them to a school with a poor English department.

A lot harder to teach them you value Judaism and a Jewish education when there are Jewish schools available and you choose their secular education over their Jewish education.
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amother
Indigo


 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 1:23 pm
Barbara wrote:
Far too many people here think that secular education is a joke. Pheh. If I need it, or my kid needs it, he'll pick up a book and learn it. Or I can teach it to him.

If you can't answer some basic questions about a basic subject, how do you anticipate that you're going to teach it to him/her? Its just not that simple.

You still have not addressed the questions raised about your example. A number of us who are highly educated and highly value secular education have pointed out that the inability of an adult many years out of school to answer those questions is meaningless. I could take the SAT tomorrow and I would probably score a few hundred points lower than the near-perfect score I got when I was 16. Does that somehow put me in the same camp as those who don't teach their kids anything secular after 8th grade? Does anyone who homeschools (for entirely non-religious reasons) not value education because they would probably have to hire a tutor or use highly acclaimed online resources to teach their kids the more advanced math and science subjects? I could probably watch a few Khan Academy videos to refresh myself enough to answer those questions and trig questions, and other stuff I've forgotten. How does that tell you anything about me or my educational background other than my likely age range?
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amother
Teal


 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 1:36 pm
mommy2b2c wrote:
I strongly disagree. I went to a bais yaakov high school. We had debates, we wrote essays, we analyzed literature. We analyzed rashi and other meforshim. We had some very strong thinkers among us. Don't make us out to be followers and mindless parrots. I find if highly insulting.


I teach at a BY and lead debates. There was not an original thought only stuff pulled off the internet. Universally the teachers complained how the girls need to be spoon fed. This school is considered the top BY. This problem is found at other schools.

Unfortunately you can't compare a quality public school with a BY.
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youngishbear




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 1:53 pm
To summarize the debate on what it means if someone is unable to answer chemistry questions 30 years post high school:

"A gentleman need not know latin, but he should at least have forgotten it."

And

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten what one has learned in school." - Albert Einstein
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 1:54 pm
amother wrote:
I teach at a BY and lead debates. There was not an original thought only stuff pulled off the internet. Universally the teachers complained how the girls need to be spoon fed. This school is considered the top BY. This problem is found at other schools.

Unfortunately you can't compare a quality public school with a BY.


Wow. So you taught in one school. I repeat. Stop calling me and my sister and my friends mindless idiots. It's insulting.
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amother
Teal


 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 2:46 pm
mommy2b2c wrote:
Wow. So you taught in one school. I repeat. Stop calling me and my sister and my friends mindless idiots. It's insulting.


Why do you think I only taught at one school? This is sort of my point. What gave you the idea I ONLY taught at one school?

Don't you want your own daughters to be able to reason and see beyond what they are told?
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 3:45 pm
amother wrote:
Why do you think I only taught at one school? This is sort of my point. What gave you the idea I ONLY taught at one school?

Don't you want your own daughters to be able to reason and see beyond what they are told?


So you taught at many schools. Whatever. Insinuating that all bais yaakov girls can't think for themselves is called stereotyping. It is rude, and insulting, and untrue. I can think for myself. So can all my friends. My sister can, my mom can, and my grandmother can. We all went to bais yaakov schools. I am surrounded by highly intelligent, logical women who went to bais yaakov schools. We are all able to reason and use logic just as well or better than your average public school kid. I'm sorry to hear that you are surrounded by so many ignoramuses in your life. That still doesn't give you the right to insult a whole group of people. I went to college with classes full of public high school graduates. I was just as capable as all them. In fact, the handful of bais yaakov graduates in my classes, were all straight A students.
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 5:21 pm
Yesh v yesh

My son went to neemus HaTorah for 9th and 10th grade
He hated it
Then he went to a very prestigious ps for computers and science
After succos he is going to Israel to learn for a year
5 of his former friends from neimus are OTD
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amother
Teal


 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 5:46 pm
mommy2b2c wrote:
So you taught at many schools. Whatever. Insinuating that all bais yaakov girls can't think for themselves is called stereotyping. It is rude, and insulting, and untrue. I can think for myself. So can all my friends. My sister can, my mom can, and my grandmother can. We all went to bais yaakov schools. I am surrounded by highly intelligent, logical women who went to bais yaakov schools. We are all able to reason and use logic just as well or better than your average public school kid. I'm sorry to hear that you are surrounded by so many ignoramuses in your life. That still doesn't give you the right to insult a whole group of people. I went to college with classes full of public high school graduates. I was just as capable as all them. In fact, the handful of bais yaakov graduates in my classes, were all straight A students.


The fact you can get straight As doesn't show you can think originally. This is a measure of being able to regurgitate material. The sad fact is that the schools don't want original thinkers because it defeats their agenda. They steer the girls to seminary after school to solidify the programming.

You know are well as I do there is a BY mindset which does not include self actualization or encourage intellectual careers.

I tell my girls teachers can be wrong in their opinions. They are welcome to disagree with me, but they must support what they say with facts. Every time I give this speech the girls act like I twisted my head backwards.
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 5:55 pm
amother wrote:
The fact you can get straight As doesn't show you can think originally. This is a measure of being able to regurgitate material. The sad fact is that the schools don't want original thinkers because it defeats their agenda. They steer the girls to seminar after school to solidify the programming.

You know are well as I do there is a BY mindset which does not include self actualization or encourage intellectual careers.

I tell my girls teachers can be wrong in their opinions. They are welcome to disagree with me, but they must support what they say with facts. Every time I give this speech the girls act like I twisted my head backwards.


How dare you do that
Those girls have to be assimilated into the Borg collective
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