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Iriya gan scandal
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Another mom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 8:35 am
Good 4 you, peanut 2
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Jewishmom8




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 8:56 am
Peanut2 wrote:
This is ridiculous.

This is absolute hysteria.

I am sure that abuse happens. I am sure abuse happened. This whole conspiracy theory is virtually impossible.

If your child is being abused please contact the authorities. Speak to your doctor, call the police, speak to a social worker. The city of Jerusalem has frum charedi social workers. There are frum doctors in Jerusalem, including English-speaking black hat types. There are frum cops. This is not the Wild West.

I googled this in Hebrew, found some allegations by parents about ONE gan, and the comments section seemed to elaborate that it's one rebbe who was abusing kids for many years. That's horrific, but not ritualistic large scale organized whatever this is. Which may exist, but all these claims on here are just terrifying people without any concrete info.

Yael - if you have any information, please contact the authorities or encourage the mothers to do so. Israel is not the Wild West. There is law and order. The main reason police struggle to investigate within the charedi community is because of all the secrecy. They cannot investigate if no one will talk. If anyone feels there is corruption then contact the press. You can PM me for the personal cell phone numbers of English-speaking journalists in Jerusalem. I feel a little uncomfortable posting them here. I am also happy to give phone numbers to an English-speaking mental health professional or police officer if PMed.

The only way to stop the abuse is to talk. There is no other way. Watch your kids, yes, and if you know something is wrong tell someone.


They did all that.
your actually being really insulting to the victims and the families.
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amother
Honeydew


 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 9:14 am
Jewishmom8 wrote:
They did all that.
your actually being really insulting to the victims and the families.


If that doesnt work, you go to the press. They like no story better than one about police cover ups.
The journalists will dig up more info than any detective.
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CantBe




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 10:40 am
Jewishmom8 wrote:
They did all that.
your actually being really insulting to the victims and the families.
They didn't do all that. What lady here can tell us that she took her child to the hospital or a kupat Cholim Doctor to be examined? What women here can tell us about her personally going to the police station to report the incident? The police has your name and info? The police has the name of the gan? You personally went and told them? The police has your personally signed report and didn't show up in the gan to question the ganenet? 10's of such reports personally given and signed about the same gan and the ganenet is still working? The police aren't there investigating? Can't be. Which women here was actually inside a police station reporting? Did the other mothers go too? 10 mothers from one gan went to the police station and told their story and the police didn't investigate?

Don't be insulted but I don't believe that. Who here will tell me that they've been to a police station? I'm not saying why didn't you do X and Y. I'm sorry for the victims. No victim is responsible. I can't say what I would have done in Chvs such a situation. But I don't believe that people are personally doing the right thing to try to help stop this. It's not their job, right??
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amother
Linen


 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 10:57 am
nope
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amother
Honeydew


 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 11:05 am
Go to the press.
Most reporters are willing to field off any threat or danger just to get a good scoop. That's why you see them in all the war zones.
Go, you could save many children! And I hope you kept documents to show them you were at the police, kuppa, etc. In fact, parents should be recording all these conversations if this is happening.
A good journalist would even make up a story just to see what the initial reaction of the officials is (without involving a child obviously).
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Peanut2




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 11:24 am
amother wrote:
I took my child to the kupat cholim. The dr saw him and said, "oh, no, not this. I am not getting involved. Go to a different doctor." Then I got a call from the head of the kupat cholim who said, "we got a call from someone telling us not to report and we won't." I told the dr I wanted to do drug testing and std testing. They said, call back in a week. Of course, by then there are no drugs in the blood. We did std testing ourselves, and it came out negative, bh, but by the time we were able to get hold of home tests, it was three months later. The doctors had the names of the school and every name my son mentioned.

We told the police. They said they would "get on it" and did not.
My friend went to merkaz hagana. Her daughter said what was going on in clear detail. Her parents were standing by the door listening closely. When the session was over, they told the parent, "your daughter was too scared to talk, she did not say anything." Again, they were given the name of the school and every name she mentioned.

I was in therapy, and my therapist had mandatory reporting. She reported. Never got any calls from the police or merkaz hagana.

The police were given a computer with a compilation of over 50 children's accounts. They said that they misplaced the computer and cannot find it.

Another friend that dealt extensively with the police and merkaz hagana, and even a neurologist that could prove her son was not psychotic and must have been abused, told me to stop before they decide to take me and my husband for questioning and have our traumatized kid have to stay with some stranger for two days while we are locked in a cell, suspected of abusing our child. She told me this happened to many of the parents from nachlaot. That was the last thing I would want to get into at such a vulnerable time.

We told his teacher and principal. They said they don't know anything and did not notice that our son was ever missing. They said the rumors going around are not true. Then, they told other parents in my class [not us] that our kid was abused by this group. Hmm. OK....
The only response I got after pulling my kid out of school was repeated phone calls from his teacher saying, "he was my student, I have a right to know exactly why you took him out and exactly what he is saying. Is he saying something hurts him? What is bothering him? You must tell me!"

We told many gedolim. They told us either we are psychotic or our son is. We went to an expert pediatric psychiatrist to rule out psychosis. He said there is no way he is psychotic, this is clear signs of PTSD and abuse. This was confirmed by three other child psychologists that evaluated him [one involved in helping these kids, two not].

We told a few friends that we were worried about that this is real and it happened to our son. [one I even told that her son is exhibiting similar behavior to our son when we found out.] They did not believe us. They said "I am not ready to think about that."

Oh. Ok. Whaaaatever.


Would you please let me know who the doctors are who behaved like this? They should be dealt with, if indeed this all happened as you described. Please let me know their names and what kupah they are in.

I have friends in Jerusalem who are doctors, including a wonderful person who is a pediatrician. You can PM me for name. You can PM me for names and numbers of psychologists, social workers, and journalists, too. I will only give you names of people I know really well who are my friends. I don't have friends who are cops but I can connect you to one who is frum and English speaking.

What did the psychiatrists you went to say?

Have you or can you go to a police station and file a report? If your friend has also dealt with something can she come with you and report as well?
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Peanut2




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 11:31 am
Jewishmom8 wrote:
They did all that.
your actually being really insulting to the victims and the families.


I have no such intentions. Abuse occurs and I am not doubting that it did.
The scale and methods described here sound like total BS. They actually sound like a cover up for real abuse. Eg a rebbe abuses kids and the blame is shifted to someone outside the school drugging the kids.
Or maybe it did happen, but not on such a scale.

Regardless of what's going on, the mass hysteria and rumor mill going on here on imamother might be hurting the real victims and destroying the truth. The more rumors there are the harder it is for the police and mental health professionals to sift the truth from all the rest. It basically 'contaminants' the children's testimony, because children naturally often embellish things (not abuse - but all sorts of details) and the real story might mangled through re-tellings and discussions and overhearing mommy talking. That's what police tend to think, in any case.

Again, I recommend filing a police report, speaking to a doctor, or a social worker.

And again, from what I could find in Hebrew on the internet there was one thing about parents complaining about one school. Not all the ganim in Jerusalem. That's crazy hysteria and totally unfounded.
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pause




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 1:01 pm
Peanut2 wrote:
Would you please let me know who the doctors are who behaved like this? They should be dealt with, if indeed this all happened as you described. Please let me know their names and what kupah they are in.

I have friends in Jerusalem who are doctors, including a wonderful person who is a pediatrician. You can PM me for name. You can PM me for names and numbers of psychologists, social workers, and journalists, too. I will only give you names of people I know really well who are my friends. I don't have friends who are cops but I can connect you to one who is frum and English speaking.

What did the psychiatrists you went to say?

Have you or can you go to a police station and file a report? If your friend has also dealt with something can she come with you and report as well?

You are coming across as really offensive to Linen amother. I am glad you are jumping in on page 26 of this thread. You would have gotten a lot of answers to your questions had you read it. You come across as a know-it-all, I'll-take-care-of-the-situation bigshot. You think a woman wouldn't do all you did before moving away overseas, unsettling her family???

I say this under my screen name because, although I have no dog in this fight so to say, I am extremely bothered by how these vulnerable and suffering amothers are being treated. They've been through enough already!!!
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youngishbear




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 1:06 pm
pause wrote:
You are coming across as really offensive to Linen amother. I am glad you are jumping in on page 26 of this thread. You would have gotten a lot of answers to your questions had you read it. You come across as a know-it-all, I'll-take-care-of-the-situation bigshot. You think a woman wouldn't do all you did before moving away overseas, unsettling her family???

I say this under my screen name because, although I have no dog in this fight so to say, I am extremely bothered by how these vulnerable and suffering amothers are being treated. They've been through enough already!!!


Thank you pause for saying this.

I, too, don't know what to believe except that something terrible is going on. Those who have suffered don't need to be put through condescension and ill-disguised blame.
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Peanut2




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 3:53 pm
pause wrote:
You are coming across as really offensive to Linen amother. I am glad you are jumping in on page 26 of this thread. You would have gotten a lot of answers to your questions had you read it. You come across as a know-it-all, I'll-take-care-of-the-situation bigshot. You think a woman wouldn't do all you did before moving away overseas, unsettling her family???

I say this under my screen name because, although I have no dog in this fight so to say, I am extremely bothered by how these vulnerable and suffering amothers are being treated. They've been through enough already!!!


I have guests coming so this will be quick.

I've been following this thread from pretty early on. I didn't say anything because I hate getting into this stuff on this site.
I keep repeating that I am not doubting anyone's specific story. I don't want survivrs of abuse to think they will not be believed. I believe that abuse happened.

I don't believe that just because a specific child, or many children, were abused, that everything written on this thread is accurate. That's all. People whose children were NOT abused come on and add what they heard and what they think and truth and fiction are mixed. That's all.

Many women are reading this and are incredibly upset and worried about their children. We should all be worried because there are terrible people out there, but this thread is all over the place. I'm sorry, but it is. I know abuse happens. And not every doctor wants to get involved. Sometimes doctors are even abusers. Same for teachers and rebbes and rabbis and community leader and psychologists and cops. The ONLY way to stop abuse, especially if more than one child is abused, is to stop the secrecy and cover-ups and rumor mill. State the truth clearly to the police, the doctor, the journalist.

I also worry that this story of a large scale conspiracy may be used by very bad people to pin REAL abuse on the conspiracy instead of the person or people really committing the abuse.
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pause




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 28 2015, 6:03 pm
Peanut2 wrote:
I have guests coming so this will be quick.

I've been following this thread from pretty early on. I didn't say anything because I hate getting into this stuff on this site.
I keep repeating that I am not doubting anyone's specific story. I don't want survivrs of abuse to think they will not be believed. I believe that abuse happened.

I don't believe that just because a specific child, or many children, were abused, that everything written on this thread is accurate. That's all. People whose children were NOT abused come on and add what they heard and what they think and truth and fiction are mixed. That's all.

Many women are reading this and are incredibly upset and worried about their children. We should all be worried because there are terrible people out there, but this thread is all over the place. I'm sorry, but it is. I know abuse happens. And not every doctor wants to get involved. Sometimes doctors are even abusers. Same for teachers and rebbes and rabbis and community leader and psychologists and cops. The ONLY way to stop abuse, especially if more than one child is abused, is to stop the secrecy and cover-ups and rumor mill. State the truth clearly to the police, the doctor, the journalist.

I also worry that this story of a large scale conspiracy may be used by very bad people to pin REAL abuse on the conspiracy instead of the person or people really committing the abuse.

Thank you for clarifying your intentions.

In your posts to Linen amother you doubted her (you said they sound like BS), you interrogated her, and you portrayed yourself as having connections so that she can avail herself of your services (as if she hadn't done enough because she hadn't contacted you yet Rolling Eyes ).

I appreciate that you are coming from a place of logic, and you are trying to help. Please be careful with how you do that in the future. Good Shabbas!
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Aug 29 2015, 2:13 pm
amother wrote:
ME! I took my child to the kupat cholim. The dr saw him and said, "oh, no, not this. I am not getting involved. Go to a different doctor." Then I got a call from the head of the kupat cholim who said, "we got a call from someone telling us not to report and we won't." I told the dr I wanted to do drug testing and std testing. They said, call back in a week. Of course, by then there are no drugs in the blood. We did std testing ourselves, and it came out negative, bh, but by the time we were able to get hold of home tests, it was three months later. The doctors had the names of the school and every name my son mentioned.

We told the police. They said they would "get on it" and did not.
My friend went to merkaz hagana. Her daughter said what was going on in clear detail. Her parents were standing by the door listening closely. When the session was over, they told the parent, "your daughter was too scared to talk, she did not say anything." Again, they were given the name of the school and every name she mentioned.

I was in therapy, and my therapist had mandatory reporting. She reported. Never got any calls from the police or merkaz hagana.

The police were given a computer with a compilation of over 50 children's accounts. They said that they misplaced the computer and cannot find it.

Another friend that dealt extensively with the police and merkaz hagana, and even a neurologist that could prove her son was not psychotic and must have been abused, told me to stop before they decide to take me and my husband for questioning and have our traumatized kid have to stay with some stranger for two days while we are locked in a cell, suspected of abusing our child. She told me this happened to many of the parents from nachlaot. That was the last thing I would want to get into at such a vulnerable time.

We told his teacher and principal. They said they don't know anything and did not notice that our son was ever missing. They said the rumors going around are not true. Then, they told other parents of kids from my son's class [!!!!!!!] that our kid was abused by this group. Hmm. OK....
The only response I got after pulling my kid out of school was repeated phone calls from his teacher saying, "he was my student, I have a right to know exactly why you took him out and exactly what he is saying. Is he saying something hurts him? What is bothering him? You must tell me!"

We told many gedolim. They told us either we are psychotic or our son is. We went to an expert pediatric psychiatrist to rule out psychosis. He said there is no way he is psychotic, this is clear signs of PTSD and abuse. This was confirmed by three other child psychologists that evaluated him [one involved in helping these kids, two not].

We told a few friends that we were worried about that this is real and it happened to our son. [one I even told that her son is exhibiting similar behavior to our son when we found out.] They did not believe us. They said "I am not ready to think about that."

Oh. Ok. Whaaaatever.

The bolded statements sound far-fetched.

The head of the kupah called you to tell you they cannot report this? That sounds very odd.

And why were the police given a *whole computer*? (And if they were, how would you know about it?) It would make more sense if they were emailed the files, in which case, the sender has a copy anyway, so it could be resent if it was lost. Some thing about your account sounds fishy.

I know I will be attacked for this, but I am wondering if you have Munchausen syndrome by proxy.
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amother
Babyblue


 

Post Sat, Aug 29 2015, 2:35 pm
Linen, I had the same experience, although you went to greater lengths than I did. I give you a lot of credit. I can't imagine how much money it cost you to do all that-we are barely even managing therapy.

I'm not turning to the media because the official liberal media stance on suspected ritual abuse is 'mass hysteria'. There are plenty of cases, including mcmartin, including nachlaot, that had ample proof that was ignored, lost, or tainted by the authorities themselves. The nachlaot suspects were told that they were suspects and their houses would be searched, weeks before the searches took place.

When contemplating what to do, I researched past incidences of ritual abuse and found that any parent who turned to the media accusing ritual abuse had been dragged through the mud, was accused of being mentally unwell, was accused of being abusers themselves, etc etc. Do I want other victims' parents to read that and stop listening to their kids? What will happen to those kids if they can't even turn to their parents?

This is a sick world. The media is there to sell papers and advertisements, not to save us. I am trying to spread awareness on some level but not through them.

It's hard for some of you (not all) to accept this story because you want to believe that all rabbanim are good, that all police will protect us, and that all media is there to tell the truth.

To preserve that comforting belief, you are instead telling yourselves that ritual abuse victims are story-tellers, their mothers are hysterically and stupidly planting ideas in their children's heads, and all suspects are really nice people and no one has to worry.

You should ask yourself why any sane Jewish mother would want you to think otherwise. Why would we bother? What are we gaining? On another thread, a poster said 'attention'. If I wanted attention, wouldn't I go to the media?
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cyj1836




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Aug 29 2015, 2:42 pm
amother wrote:
Quote:
This is the part that makes it all so unbelievable. I honestly don't buy it.


Well that's why I said to stop being so lazy and do your own research. Instead of "not buying" it, call a few people and hear what they have to say and then maybe you will start "buying" it before your kid is harmed.


like who??? I would talk to anyone that would give me some facts. I can deal with the graphic details if it means getting to the bottom of this. I hear so many ladies say, "I just can't hear this." , when it comes to hearing the real details. The real details are what distinguishes this situation from the typical (but unfortunately rampant) molestation that is going on in Yerushalayim (and all over the frum world). I read a post earlier that someone had submitted to the police a report of 50 testimonies from children (apologies if I'm off on the exact post). Would it be possible to have a copy of the report, of course with deleting any names or incriminating information to protect the privacy of the families and children, just for the mothers that are unaware of the volume and magnitude of the problem. At least people could start taking this more seriously if there was a volume of testimonies that are not individual stories you hear from neighbors at the park. Which, by the way , is not the place to be discussing this since we have to be so indirect with children and others around. We need to have a forum for this to be discussed and investigated with our strength in numbers. I am currently looking into how to facilitate this with other professionals in the near future. We have to support each other in this. There are so many in the dark in and alone in this and I see everyone walking around outside going on as if "it's all good", while there are those of us that know there is such a dark undercurrent. It needs to be brought out with numbers so the perps start to know that we are not targets and our victims are not victims, they are survivors! Then we can hopefully get justice served. First it has to be known how much of this is true; ie, what the perps are actually doing, where, how they are getting access to the children , etc. This can be dealt with if we see each other as allies and not adversaries. We all want the same thing... for our precious Yiddisheh neshamos to thrive in a Torah life.
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cyj1836




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Aug 29 2015, 3:13 pm
DrMom wrote:
The bolded statements sound far-fetched.

The head of the kupah called you to tell you they cannot report this? That sounds very odd.

And why were the police given a *whole computer*? (And if they were, how would you know about it?) It would make more sense if they were emailed the files, in which case, the sender has a copy anyway, so it could be resent if it was lost. Some thing about your account sounds fishy.

I know I will be attacked for this, but I am wondering if you have Munchausen syndrome by proxy.


I am sorry for your naivety, but lots of evidence is lost by the police. My brother in-law is a Federal police officer in the US (a good Jewish one at that!); my dad was in secret service in the army, and his best friend is a retired FBI agent. Hun, I hate to break it to you, but very important items "get lost " a lot. Underwear from rape victims that need DNA samples, etc. And it is very possible the police took the entire computer to be sure that there wasn't other evidence to show that the owner compiled it themselves. They can take entire hardware items for evidence anytime, and let the plaintif know that they need to back up everything because they wil not have it. Just a thought...I would imagine that whoever offered this evidence has a copy of the testimonies they gave.

And whoever called from the kupah was surely a high up individual with enough clout to let them know, in only one phone call, that in no uncertain terms would they put themselves on the line to be witness to such hainess crimes. Saying they are the "head" may not be exact, because there are many "heads" there. But I'm sure they indicated what the mother who posted meant, which is that they are an authoritative enough figure to call and inform her they would not testify on her child behalf.
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Aug 29 2015, 3:33 pm
cyj1836 wrote:

And whoever called from the kupah was surely a high up individual with enough clout to let them know, in only one phone call, that in no uncertain terms would they put themselves on the line to be witness to such hainess crimes. Saying they are the "head" may not be exact, because there are many "heads" there. But I'm sure they indicated what the mother who posted meant, which is that they are an authoritative enough figure to call and inform her they would not testify on her child behalf.
By law they must report any suspicion of abuse. (doesn't matter from who). My friend who isn't abusive but had a wild son that was often a step of her, actually had a tik in Revacha suspecting abuse cause some of the things that he did (like drinking a bottle of acamol). There are laws in this country. A pediatrician has to report. So does the hospital.
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ally




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Aug 29 2015, 3:40 pm
amother wrote:
Linen, I had the same experience, although you went to greater lengths than I did. I give you a lot of credit. I can't imagine how much money it cost you to do all that-we are barely even managing therapy.

I'm not turning to the media because the official liberal media stance on suspected ritual abuse is 'mass hysteria'. There are plenty of cases, including mcmartin, including nachlaot, that had ample proof that was ignored, lost, or tainted by the authorities themselves. The nachlaot suspects were told that they were suspects and their houses would be searched, weeks before the searches took place.

When contemplating what to do, I researched past incidences of ritual abuse and found that any parent who turned to the media accusing ritual abuse had been dragged through the mud, was accused of being mentally unwell, was accused of being abusers themselves, etc etc. Do I want other victims' parents to read that and stop listening to their kids? What will happen to those kids if they can't even turn to their parents?

This is a sick world. The media is there to sell papers and advertisements, not to save us. I am trying to spread awareness on some level but not through them.

It's hard for some of you (not all) to accept this story because you want to believe that all rabbanim are good, that all police will protect us, and that all media is there to tell the truth.

To preserve that comforting belief, you are instead telling yourselves that ritual abuse victims are story-tellers, their mothers are hysterically and stupidly planting ideas in their children's heads, and all suspects are really nice people and no one has to worry.

You should ask yourself why any sane Jewish mother would want you to think otherwise. Why would we bother? What are we gaining? On another thread, a poster said 'attention'. If I wanted attention, wouldn't I go to the media?


I think it is safe to say that most of the posters questioning are not under any illusions that all Rabbanim reside on a pedestal. We are also aware that there are police who are corrupt and that the media is out to sell papers (although I cannot think of any story in recent history that would sell more papers than this).
At the same time, it does not seem possible that there could exist such a massive conspiracy which extends from the Iriya to the Police to the Kuppah to the Ganenot, with no adult with first degree knowledge ever breaking the silence.
That there is something very rotten and that children are being abused, I believe. But all this secrecy and paranoia does nothing to stop abuse. It only enables it and allows it to flourish.
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Aug 29 2015, 3:43 pm
I have spoken at length to Shana, a psychologist at Magen. She has been actively involved in the situation for some time and is in touch with many, many people including parents, therapists, rabbanim and law enforcement. For anyone looking for factual information about this situation, I strongly suggest that you call Shana who is more than willing to provide the information that she has.

Shana: 052-502-5522 or shana@magenprotects.org
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Aug 29 2015, 3:56 pm
5*Mom wrote:
I have spoken at length to Shana, a psychologist at Magen. She has been actively involved in the situation for some time and is in touch with many, many people including parents, therapists, rabbanim and law enforcement. For anyone looking for factual information about this situation, I strongly suggest that you call Shana who is more than willing to provide the information that she has.

Shana: 052-502-5522 or shana@magenprotects.org
Why don't you tell us the highlights?
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